Uggggh, Oil is up again!

[OnTheMoor]

Moor, I invite do a bit of research on radioactive steam emissions from the Bruce power plant, as well as those coming up here from the south side of Lake Erie. There have been several studies tracking the increase in occurence of lymphoma along the the track of winds carrying these emissions. A total meltdown is only one of many potential threats represented by a nuclear installation. Remember the "accidental leaks"of irradiated heavy water into Lake Ontario just a couple of years ago?

No, I do not trust any scientist associated with nuclear energy, anymore than I trust the scientists who said thalidimide was safe for expecting mothers, or the scientists who said that that PCBs or TCDDs (Agent Orange) or dioxins, etc. are safe for the environment. Just because someone has Piled higher and Deeper (PhD) after their name does not in any way make them honest or trustworthy.

djm

I can't speak to the Bruce Plant because I have not read those studies. However, I can say that I've read similar things concerning everything from power lines to cell phones. Every form of industry and power generation has costs. That's not to poo-poo on people with lymphoma, just to say that I fail to see how it is more serious than people who suffered from something like the Sydney tar-ponds. Should we stop making steel too? I don't believe you should pack these things in, I believe that you should research and watch them very carefully.

No a PhD is not always reliable, but I couldn't find any BA students at MacDonalds with much knowledge of Nuclear Physics.

[anniemcu]

... Nuclear power creates waste, yes, but it can be stored and who knows what will be possible in the future. They are not putting nuclear waste in your backyard, just like, I assume, they haven't put an oil refinery in your backyard.

Surely you are joking. They are indeed putting nuclear waste in our backyard. The trouble is, that you are not considering the immensity of the yard, and the enormity of the risk. Anyplace on the planet, or, arguably in the solar system, or even the universe, is not far enough away, and no ammount of cladding, burying, shielding, etc. is enough. It builds up far,far faster than it breaks down, and that, in case you hadn't considered, presents a serious storage problem as well. When you are making something faster than you can dispose of it, you've got problems... when that something you are making and having paroblems disposing of is stupendously toxic, far-reaching, and long-lived, you are not just asking for, but postively guaranteeing trouble. Trouble that no-one, now or 500 years from now, can afford.

[Redwolf]

Yup, Red. Diesel especially will bring produce prices way up. However, food has been so very cheap for a long time, that I am not sure it will be inflationary. It might seem expensive, but really all the global deals have suppressed at least fresh produce prices.

The U.S. is hamstrung on energy. The emotional popular consensus is AGAINST the following: nuclear power, drilling more in Gulf or SoCal waters, ANWAR exploration. We're basically screwed.

France and some others have pledged a huge commitment to nuclear power using a salt water process. How is it that there are so many Leftists who will allow nuclear power there while the same is not true in the U.S.?

Too much emotion in public policy.

Not just produce. Everything we consume has fossil fuels at its roots. Cattle eat grain that is harvested and transported using fossil fuels...and those same fuels are used to move the cattle to the feed lot, the slaughter house, and eventually to the supermarket.

The trouble with talking about things like nuclear is they're still not addressing the need for fossil fuels in tractors, trucks, etc. Nuclear power may light our homes, but it won't run a truck or a tractor. Unless we can find a viable alternative to gasoline, we are seriously screwed. I don't know about you, but I can barely afford to feed my family now...if food prices keep going up, it's going to get seriously scary...especially with so many jobs going overseas!

Redwolf

[spittin_in_the_wind]

Well, my understanding of it (and I'm not sure if the discussion was about CANDU or something else) was that it is possible to build a reactor that generates a waste far less toxic and hazardous than plutonium, perhaps something with a far shorter half life or even non-radioactive. I'm sorry I don't have even the slightest reference for this. The explanation given to me for why we don't have these is that there is no financial incentive to build power plants right now, and because of the political climate against nuclear power in any form. I'll need to consult the hubby, he might be able to give me better information about it.

Robin

[The Weekenders]

I'm rather fond of the large fields of very high wind turbines visible from a couple of points on my way to Minneapolis last year.

Well, we have had 'em here for years (Altamont Pass) and they are a killing ground for raptors (hawks, eagles, owls). They are shutting down a substantial number of em' for that reason, pending a design change of some sort.

I would like to believe they are great too, but at this cost as of now. Because we got plenty of wind here.

[oscartherabbit]

Redwolf/Weekenders

While you are absolutely right that an increase in oil prices has a knock on affect across the board to anything downstream of where the production and transportation costs are, there is a flip side of this that you've missed.

Higher oil prices mean more money for the oil companies, but it also means more tax revenue for your government. It means the stock market does better, and so your pension plan, stocks and savings do better too (the current rise in the FTSE is largely due to the oil majors), and it also gives a bit of stability to an industry that employs millions of people and allows them to feed, clothe and house their families (and, in case you hadn't guessed - I'm one of 'em). I remember less that ten years ago when Brent crude spot was somewhere around $15/bbl, and I didn't know if I was going to be employed from one month to the next. I didn't get a pay rise for nearly 2 and a half years, and I counted myself lucky. It wasn't much fun, I can tell you, so from where I'm sitting high oil proces ain't necessarily all bad in the short term.

Of course, the other thing that high fuel costs does is encourage people to economise - maybe walk or cycle instead of taking the car. Maybe get a more fuel efficient car. Maybe use public transport. All these things have a positive effect on the environment.

The irony is, of course, that we're all going to have to learn to live without oil in the forseeable future. Unfortunately, the only way alternative technologies are going to get serious investment is when they become economic. A major driver in that is the price of oil, as it gives both an incentive to find better and cheaper ways, and also provides the money for the energy companies to carry out the R&D work. And trust me - they are doing it. Shell, BP, etc do not plan to pack up shop and go home when the last drop of oil and gas sputters out of the ground.

So high oil proces aren't bad in the long term either. In fact, they are an inevitable and necessary part of moving on to an alternative.

They are, however, a massive pain in the backside if you've just realised your heating tank is empty.

Respectfully,
Osc

[MarkB]

Below is my transportation to and from work and most of my shopping after work. Owning several pairs of good sturdy shoes.



If needed I use a blend of public transportation, taxis, bicycle, and roller blades depending on the distance I have to travel.

I don't buy bottled water but have noticed the large price increases in all foods, clothes and anything else that I purchase. So even if you don't own a car, we're all being hit by high oil prices that seem to have the skies the limit attitude.

I'm against urban sprawl, freeways but for public transportation, higher population densities, sustainable cities.

But if I did consider to buy a car this is what I would purchase, there is a six month waiting list for delivery here in Windsor for this car, in the home of the minivan and the Big Three (well the old big three).



Test drove one three weeks ago and loved every minute of it, for the urban enviroment this is the car to have.

MarkB

[Redwolf]

Oh God, it's trickle-down econonmics once again.

I'm sure my government will do great things with all that money while my family is starving. Of course, none of those things will be anything like national health care or farm relief, that might make a difference to the average Joe.

My daughter goes to school six miles away, down the side of a mountain. You think I'm going to send her off on a bicycle every morning? Think again. Or on a bus that will take two hours and at least two transfers to go six miles? I think not.

I'd love to buy a more fuel-efficient car...unfortunately, they cost money too. Like most Americans, I have to make due with what I have.

Sure, I could move closer to where my daughter goes to school...if I had $795,000 to spend on a house, or $1,500 a month to spend on rent. Sorry, but I just don't fall into that income bracket. We considered moving to another state a few years ago, but unfortunately the bottom fell out of the computer market due to my government making it easy for the big corporations to move jobs overseas...so we're stuck. And we're not alone.

The bottom line is, these prices are already being artificially manipulated to benefit the same corporations that my government is already helping with my tax dollars.

"Retirement plan"? What f*ckin' retirement plan? My husband's company considers issuing him stock options a sufficient "retirement plan." And then they manipulate the stock sales so the average employee can do little or nothing with those options.

I said it before, and I'll say it again...there's going to be a crisis of enormous proportions, and it's going to happen soon.

Redwolf

[MarkB]

Don't get to upset Redwolf, what you are saying is coming, here in Canada it has been reported that our federal government is sitting on a 9.1 billion dollar surplus over last year and we as Canadians haven't seen one cent in tax cuts since they (the liberals) have come to power, and we are an energy rich country paying world prices for fuel! And they don't have the slightest idea what to do with, no vision or idea what so ever.

Maybe higher prices for while jolt us into really thinking how we are living and what we should do about it.

markB

[spittin_in_the_wind]

Yeah, Mark, I don't get that. I doubt the Saudi's are paying world prices for their oil, but then I could be wrong. Is it true that the major oil supplier to the U.S. is Canada? Doesn't it seem like we could strike some kind of deal that would benefit everyone? I mean, hurricanes don't really affect transporting oil from Canada to the U.S.!

Robin

[oscartherabbit]

Oh God, it's trickle-down econonmics once again....

Don't take it personally. I'm not saying that you have to do all these things, but that we, collectively, will have to over time. If a high oil price encourages us to make that shift then it's not necessarily a bad thing, and it's not unreasonable to point that out.

You're absolutely right that there is going to be a change in energy sources and usage, for global economic and environmental reasons, in the next 20-30 years or so, although I'm not sure it'll be an absolute crisis. In any case, part of the driver for that change will be a shortage of hydrocarbon energy and consequently a high oil price.

It used to be the case that OPEC considered a high oil price to be as bad as a low price, as it usually triggered an economic slow down that in turn reduced demand. A stable, sustainable price suited everybody better than boom/bust cycles. However, demand for oil has increased markedly from places such as China, India and some other emerging economies, and OPEC has been unable to keep up with it. The goal posts have moved, and demand has forced a rise in the sustainable oil price. The current record prices are not going to last forever, as the output from Russia, West Africa and Canada is increasing and they will narrow the gap between demand and supply, but the dominance of economies such as China and India with their high energy needs are likely to keep the base level rather higher than we are used to. Whether we like it or not, it seems likely that high oil prices are going to be around for some time.

BTW : Petrol costs me about 90p/litre which, if my maths is right, is the equivalent of about $6.10/gallon. My advice is to buy it in litres instead - it makes it feel much cheaper.

[Flyingcursor]

I agree with otr in that we, as a people (whatever that means), will have to radically rethink about how we live to avoid catastrophe. The biggest problem now is that the majority of people are not willing to give up what they perceive as convenience. I'm equally as guilty.
What bothers me though is what our grand parents would have thought of as luxury most modern people in 1st world countries consider God-given rights.

I read an article last week about a water crises in the US Southwest. Apparently one of the major drains on supply is the use of water for golf courses and keeping green lawns in the sprouting housing developments.
A woman was quoted as saying, "I won't have my children growing up without a lawn."

My response: "You stupid little chudding tart. If you want a green lawn so chudding bad, why are you living in a chudding desert? Move! Chudding self centered idiot!!!!"

(please not the generous use of the great new swear word bestowed upon us by our friends in the Mother country.)

"Retirement plan"? What f*ckin' retirement plan?

Amen. Would this have been a good time to use "chud"?

[oscartherabbit]

Without wishing to appear smug, there are times when I'm pleased to be living in a country that has plentiful rain and a health service that is free to all at the point of use.

Of course, I tend to forget this when I've just filled the the car and or am spending Saturday pm at home because the cricket has been rained off.

[TomB]

Oh God, it's trickle-down econonmics once again....

Don't take it personally.

BTW : Petrol costs me about 90p/litre which, if my maths is right, is the equivalent of about $6.10/gallon. My advice is to buy it in litres instead - it makes it feel much cheaper.

Of course Red takes it personally, the situation is personal. It affects everyone, every day. Her situation is one of thousands, (yeah, more than that). Clearly she knows you weren't speaking directly to her, but the situation is a very personal one.

Yeah, if we bought in liters most folks, myself included, wouldn't have any idea what they were paying in terms of what they know.

Tom

[oscartherabbit]

It isn't personal. It's economics and global politics. High oil prices will hurt more in countries that have grown used to cheap and plentiful domestic oil supplies, that's true, but they are still inevitable and, in the long run, part of the progress towards something better.