Uggggh, Oil is up again!

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Tyler
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Tell us something.: I've picked up the tinwhistle again after several years, and have recently purchased a Chieftain v5 from Kerry Whistles that I cannot wait to get (why can't we beam stuff yet, come on Captain Kirk, get me my Low D!)
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Post by Tyler »

The Weekenders wrote:Yup, Red. Diesel especially will bring produce prices way up. However, food has been so very cheap for a long time, that I am not sure it will be inflationary. It might seem expensive, but really all the global deals have suppressed at least fresh produce prices.

The U.S. is hamstrung on energy. The emotional popular consensus is AGAINST the following: nuclear power, drilling more in Gulf or SoCal waters, ANWAR exploration. We're basically screwed.

France and some others have pledged a huge commitment to nuclear power using a salt water process. How is it that there are so many Leftists who will allow nuclear power there while the same is not true in the U.S.?

Too much emotion in public policy.
Oh yeah, Weeks?
Why don't I just drive my nuclear powered Mini over there an' show ya whats up, foo. :D
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Post by spittin_in_the_wind »

I seem to remember hearing that certain modern nuclear power plants are much safer and potentially cleaner than the older (3-mile island) type. Also that spent fuel can be reprocessed to extract more energy; however, this would require not using a plutonium producing process in the first round. Anybody know the details about that? I'm pretty vague on it, as you can see, but if there were a better type of power plant available, it seems very short-sighted to dismiss nuclear power out of hand.

Robin
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Post by fiddleronvermouth »

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from:

http://www.gaiaproject.bc.ca/GAIA/Websi ... Energy.htm

Canadian Tire has started selling solar panels. Next summer I think I'm going to build a solar powered fountain for the garden (well, it's more of a balcony). It's the perfect invention. I could make millions, I'm telling you. MILLIONS! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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Post by fiddleronvermouth »

spittin_in_the_wind wrote:I'm pretty vague on it, as you can see, but if there were a better type of power plant available, it seems very short-sighted to dismiss nuclear power out of hand.

Robin
I read a book called Gaia: An Atlas of Planet Management that was eye-opening. There was a model for a tidal power plant in it that stuck in my head. Think of that. All the hydroelectric power you could dream of without blocking rivers and destroying spawning habitats. No toxic emissions, minimal environmental impact...

The book was written over a decade ago when oil was too cheap to bother developing alternative energy sources. I think the prohibitive cost of oil is a great opportunity to reach a turning point and start using more efficient, cleaner and (ultimately) cheaper sources of energy. I think it will be a major tragedy if humanity wastes the opportunity to evolve by turning to nuclear energy.
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Post by The Weekenders »

I think that is what the Europeans are pursuing, Fiddler. But US policy, and environmental policy is a mixture of science and fear.

I think you would have been shouted down in leftist circles in the past though for suggesting anything nuclear. Looks like that is changing.
How do you prepare for the end of the world?
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Post by OnTheMoor »

spittin_in_the_wind wrote:I seem to remember hearing that certain modern nuclear power plants are much safer and potentially cleaner than the older (3-mile island) type. Also that spent fuel can be reprocessed to extract more energy; however, this would require not using a plutonium producing process in the first round. Anybody know the details about that? I'm pretty vague on it, as you can see, but if there were a better type of power plant available, it seems very short-sighted to dismiss nuclear power out of hand.

Robin
Nuclear has come a spectacularly long way. Nuclear is clean, efficient and very safe. The major concern should be proliferation, not environmental damage IMO. Here's a pretty good Nuclear FAQ from awhile ago,
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/
It's Canadian, but that should be okay, CANDUs are up there with the most advanced technology and improving constantly.
From one of the questions,
CANDU reactors can also burn spent PWR fuel, since the U-235 content in this fuel is still slightly enriched over natural fuel. The South Koreans are especially interested in this potential synergism between PWR and CANDU reactors, since they operate both types.

Recently, CANDU technology has been considered by the U.S. D.O.E. as a vehicle for denaturing weapons-grade plutonium declared surplus after the warming of the Cold War. See the next section for more details.
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Post by fiddleronvermouth »

OnTheMoor wrote: Nuclear has come a spectacularly long way. Nuclear is clean, efficient and very safe. The major concern should be proliferation, not environmental damage IMO.
Yeah, I hear they've figured out a way to use spent uranium rods as crop fertilizer!
Here's a pretty good Nuclear FAQ from awhile ago,
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/
As a general rule, one should not trust praise of a product when it's coming from the people who are trying to sell it to you.

Edit: More on the author of that website:
Dr. Jeremy Whitlock ... is a reactor physicist at Atomic Energy of Canada Limited's (AECL) Chalk River Laboratories, and is the immediate Past President of the Canadian Nuclear Society (CNS) and a member of the Board of Directors of the American Nuclear Society (ANS). He has a PhD in Engineering Physics from McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario), with a specialty in CANDU reactor physics. Dr. Whitlock's current professional involvement is the physics analysis of MAPLE research reactors. ... In 1999 Dr. Whitlock received the Education and Communication Award from the Canadian Nuclear Society, partly for his work on this website.
Last edited by fiddleronvermouth on Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uggggh, Oil is up again!

Post by anniemcu »

Daniel_Bingamon wrote:This is amazing. It's up again, I don't believe it. The past few years have been the most dramatic increase of oil that I ever seen.

They make every possible excuse on television for this, but if there were shortages, it would have been like the 70's with the long lines. I don't think these excuses are holding water (or maybe oil).
There are not shortages. There are folks trying to make their fortunes right now, 'cause they won't be able to get away with it for long, and the new push for clamping down on polution and focussing on other, non-depleting energy sources is going to take the wind out of oil's sails in the not too distant future.

I have a friend who actually works for the big oil industry. He confides that there is no acceptable reason for the rate increases at this time.
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Post by anniemcu »

OnTheMoor wrote:
spittin_in_the_wind wrote:I seem to remember hearing that certain modern nuclear power plants are much safer and potentially cleaner than the older (3-mile island) type. Also that spent fuel can be reprocessed to extract more energy; however, this would require not using a plutonium producing process in the first round. Anybody know the details about that? I'm pretty vague on it, as you can see, but if there were a better type of power plant available, it seems very short-sighted to dismiss nuclear power out of hand.

Robin
Nuclear has come a spectacularly long way. Nuclear is clean, efficient and very safe. The major concern should be proliferation, not environmental damage IMO. Here's a pretty good Nuclear FAQ from awhile ago,
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/
It's Canadian, but that should be okay, CANDUs are up there with the most advanced technology and improving constantly.
From one of the questions,
CANDU reactors can also burn spent PWR fuel, since the U-235 content in this fuel is still slightly enriched over natural fuel. The South Koreans are especially interested in this potential synergism between PWR and CANDU reactors, since they operate both types.

Recently, CANDU technology has been considered by the U.S. D.O.E. as a vehicle for denaturing weapons-grade plutonium declared surplus after the warming of the Cold War. See the next section for more details.
Two words... "half life"... oh, and another... "disposal"

Ain't no gettin' around those in any acceptable way.
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Post by fiddleronvermouth »

Here's what Mr. Burns, um, I mean Dr. Whitlock has to offer on the topic of disposal:
In 1988 the CNFWMP, through AECL, submitted its generic (non-site-specific) proposal [11] for long-term nuclear used-fuel management to the federal government, which intiated an Environmental Review process that ultimately took ten years to conclude. Under the proposal, the used fuel would be placed in disposal vaults about 500 to 1000 meters deep in the granite rock of the Canadian Shield. The "formations of choice" are large, single intrusions called batholiths, formed between one and two billion years ago, and geologically stable since that time. Other criteria met by grantitic batholiths are low mineral (and therefore economic) value, and low ground-water movement rates.


Used fuel would be encased in corrosion-resistant containers designed to last thousands of years, and surrounded by a buffer material (such as bentonite clay) that retards water migration. The vaults, tunnels, and shafts of this disposal site would be backfilled and sealed during its closure stage. The safety design of the emplacement technology has been developed with the conservative assumption that the fuel-bearing containers will only last a fraction of their design life. The technology also does not depend on long-term institutional controls, and is adaptable to future societal requirements and changes in criteria.

A specific site has not been sought at this stage, as mandated by the joint decision of the federal and Ontario governments in 1981 to develop only generic technology for initial review. However, key site characteristics (distance from post-glacial faulting, low mineral value, low ground-water movement, size and uniform nature of plutonic rock, etc.) have been defined in preparation for the siting stage of the program.
Depending on the size chosen for the facility, the total project cost is estimated at between CDN$9 and CDN$13 billion, spread over a 60- to 90-year period (during most of which, about 1000 people would be employed in the construction and operation). Electricity users in Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick currently contribute about 1% of their electricity costs towards a fund for future long-term nuclear waste disposal.
In the rest of the article, he explains that for the moment we just stick'em in these big swimming pools for a year or so, then moving them to "air dry" under a few feet of concrete, and that:
The radiation ... creates a simultaneous need for shielding. About three meters of water are sufficient to absorb the radiation emitted initially by the used fuel, while in the dry-storage phase about a meter of concrete suffices. Unshielded, the radiation dose measured at a distance of 30 cm from a used CANDU fuel bundle, one year following discharge, would be about 50 - 60 Sv/h (5000 - 6000 rem/h) [5], which is lethal after a few minutes' exposure. The radiation level drops to about 1 Sv/h after 50 years, 0.3 Sv/h after 100 years, and less than 0.001 Sv/h (100 mrem/h) after 500 years. At this time the major hazard from the used fuel is no longer one of external exposure; for example, by these estimates, spending an hour about a foot away from a 500-year-old CANDU fuel bundle would result in radiation dose about 1/4 of the average annual background exposure, and thousands of times less than what is known to lead to physical harm.
He sounds so ... *perky* about the whole thing. "Standing a foot away from a spent fuel rod five hundred years from now "only" generates TWO THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY (give or take) times the normal amount of radiation in the atmosphere. As far as we know, that might not even make your skin fall off!"
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Post by anniemcu »

fiddleronvermouth wrote:Here's what Mr. Burns, um, I mean Dr. Whitlock has to offer on the topic of disposal:....
(edited to remove bulk of quote)

He sounds so ... *perky* about the whole thing. "Standing a foot away from a spent fuel rod five hundred years from now "only" generates TWO THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY (give or take) times the normal amount of radiation in the atmosphere. As far as we know, that might not even make your skin fall off!"
Why... golly! He's sure reassured me. :boggle: :really:
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Post by djm »

Moor wrote:Nuclear has come a spectacularly long way. Nuclear is clean, efficient and very safe.
No one knows risk like the insurance industry. They have made it a science. No nuclear power installation is insurable anywhere in the world. The risks and extent of outcomes for any kind of accident are so staggering that the insurance industry won't touch them. Anyone who tells you they are safe is an outright liar, and worse, a dangerous criminal.

The idea of burying reactor waste in deep mining pits near Sudbury, Ontario, has been around for decades. No-one can get around the fact that there is groundwater seepage, and absolutley no way of recovery once radioactive waste starts leaking into the water table.

Nuclear power is just a bad idea all around. The only ones trying to tell you it is safe are the physisists who like to play with it regardless of any consequences, and the crooks who are trying to make a buck off it.
fov wrote:There was a model for a tidal power plant in it that stuck in my head
One of the big problems with tidal power is fouling of the turbines by marine life. No-one has come up with a working solution for this. Maintenance is expected to be excessive due to this problem.

Speaking of tidal power, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the project that is already underway to put large tide-driven turbine propellers in the river beside Manhattan. This is expected to generate power for several large buildings. As experience grows with this technology I would guess we will see more and more of this type of thing.

djm
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Post by anniemcu »

I'm rather fond of the large fields of very high wind turbines visible from a couple of points on my way to Minneapolis last year.
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Post by OnTheMoor »

fiddleronvermouth wrote:
OnTheMoor wrote: Nuclear has come a spectacularly long way. Nuclear is clean, efficient and very safe. The major concern should be proliferation, not environmental damage IMO.
Yeah, I hear they've figured out a way to use spent uranium rods as crop fertilizer!
Here's a pretty good Nuclear FAQ from awhile ago,
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/
As a general rule, one should not trust praise of a product when it's coming from the people who are trying to sell it to you.

Edit: More on the author of that website:
Dr. Jeremy Whitlock ... is a reactor physicist at Atomic Energy of Canada Limited's (AECL) Chalk River Laboratories, and is the immediate Past President of the Canadian Nuclear Society (CNS) and a member of the Board of Directors of the American Nuclear Society (ANS). He has a PhD in Engineering Physics from McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario), with a specialty in CANDU reactor physics. Dr. Whitlock's current professional involvement is the physics analysis of MAPLE research reactors. ... In 1999 Dr. Whitlock received the Education and Communication Award from the Canadian Nuclear Society, partly for his work on this website.
Thanks, I can read. I know who he is. Would you rather have had me post something from David Susuki? Seems to me that the best person to talk about Nuclear Power and the CANDU reactor specifically is someone who works closest with them. Attack what he says, not who he is.

Nuclear power creates waste, yes, but it can be stored and who knows what will be possible in the future. They are not putting nuclear waste in your backyard, just like, I assume, they haven't put an oil refinery in your backyard.



djm the insruance company can talk about the cost of a meltdown, not whether or not there will be one. The last North American Nuclear Disaster was Three Mile Island in 1979. Since then, two have taken place, both in Japan. As far as I know, no disaster has ever taken place in France and I believe they have more experience than anyone. So where you get the idea that they are any more dangerous than, say, your average chemical plant, I have no idea.
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Post by djm »

Moor, I invite do a bit of research on radioactive steam emissions from the Bruce power plant, as well as those coming up here from the south side of Lake Erie. There have been several studies tracking the increase in occurence of lymphoma along the the track of winds carrying these emissions. A total meltdown is only one of many potential threats represented by a nuclear installation. Remember the "accidental leaks"of irradiated heavy water into Lake Ontario just a couple of years ago?

No, I do not trust any scientist associated with nuclear energy, anymore than I trust the scientists who said thalidimide was safe for expecting mothers, or the scientists who said that that PCBs or TCDDs (Agent Orange) or dioxins, etc. are safe for the environment. Just because someone has Piled higher and Deeper (PhD) after their name does not in any way make them honest or trustworthy.

djm
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