2 Beginner questions: fingering problem & learning by ea

[dwinterfield]

A concertina player recently reminded me that much of this music is all about accompanying dancers. At least that's where it came from. It should not be so fast that the dancers can't dance to it. I don't dance, but I've watched. When I play a jig or reel and think about moving feet (or how I imagine feet with move sicne I don't know what a jig or reel looks like) it tends to move my playing speed to a human pace.

[fluti31415]

Thank you all for the interesting replies again. ...

What playing slowly concerns; this morning I played through my limited repertoir again, but every tune at about half the speed. I was surprised at how difficult that actually was, and how many more mistakes I seemed to play ^^. I'm just not sure that this what I need though. According to my teacher my rhythm is quite good already (well, jigs that is... I only just learned reels the way I play them now for about a week or 2 or 3), and I don't seem to find it easier to play with a correct rhythm/feeling when I play slowly than when I play faster. ...

When you practice fast, your muscles learn the mistakes, so make sure you never (well rarely) make a mistake when you are practicing.

This is the first time that I hear this, but I must admit it makes sense... I will pay more attention to it.

Thanks again for the very interesting content & the help,

Vincent

Vincent, you might find some good help in the book: "The Mastery of Music," by Barry Green (who also wrote "The Inner Game of Music"). I would especially recommend Chapter 3, on the woodwind players. This book is available in paperback, and your library might even have it.

[peeplj]

First, I enjoyed listening to your clips. You play and record well for someone who hasn't been at it very long yet.

Overall your "feel" for jigs and slides is further along than your feel for polkas or reels, and so you play them with better endurance. Your jigs have a nice lift and some of them really shine!

On the reels -- on everything -- I agree you need to slow down a bit, and also work on endurance. Try to play each tune at least 3 times through.

Listening is key to getting the right feel on the reels and polkas. There are things in the rhythm that need to happen off the beat.

I wish you could see some of these played by a squeezebox player where you could watch his hands. I gained a whole new understanding of reels when I started playing in sessions where there were box players.

On the crispness and execution of the ornamentation, give it time, and don't try to rush through it. A nicely executed roll has a relaxed, flowing feel to it. I agree Steve's method is a good way to get there.

Overall, I am extremely impressed by your playing. Keep on keepin' on!

If you're ever in my neck of the woods, you'd be most welcome to sit in on our sessions!

Best wishes,

--James

[Azalin]

Blackdeath, I started about six years ago and I remember being as intense as you, and asking myself the same questions. I was practicing at least 2-3 hours every day, for the first 2-3 years, and I would get very frustrated at not seeing as much progress as I would have liked to see. But without you realizing it, practice always works. It makes you improve in many different ways. Listening also improves your ear. It used to take me hours and hours to learn a reel and play it well. Throughout the years you will listen to tunes in sessions, and they will become hardcoded into your brain without you even playing it. You'll then sit down and learn the play the tune in a few minutes. It will take a few years, and lotsa listening.

I was really into playing fast, too, at the beginning, at the expense of rhythm and phrasing. Brother Steve himself kept on telling me to slow the heck down, but it took me a big while to actually listen To me, irish music was Solas and all those fast commecial fast players. But I came across a lovely whistle player in Ireland in 2000 (Geraldine McNamara I think), she was teaching at Willie Clancy festival. She played a few jigs in a style I loved so much, with a moderate speed, and it totally changed the way I wanted to play. I also came across an old Geraldine Cotter tutorial on CD (used to be a tape in the 60s/70s) the same summer, and the same type of tunes I love so much were on that CD. I found out that you didnt need to play jigs and reels at zillions beats per minute to get a great swing out of it. These days, slower music is much more musical and enjoyable to me, although pushing a reel can get really exciting once in a while

So keep on the good work and intensity, work hard, and you will without a doubt become a great whistle player.

[Eldarion]

Hey Vincent,
In case you haven't sniffed them out yet, there're a few sites where great traditional music can be gotten for free. Here's some:

http://www.lafferty.ca/music/irish/flute-geezers/
http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html

Also don't forget the RTE radio broadcasts, like "The Late Session", "The Bloom of Youth" and "Ceili House". They archive their programmes so you can listen to the previous weeks' shows too.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thelatesession/
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thebloomofyouth/

Good Luck!

[Tommy]

I head your samples of music. Do not quit. Enjoy playing and what you think needs improving will happen.

[Pete D]

I've been thinking about this thread for a day or two now...I can't get out of my head that you've only been playing for 8 months. As a matter of fact, I don't know if I can believe it (literally), unless that's not you playing the whistle. If it is...you should not be asking the questions here, rather you should be dispensing advise. If that is you playing the whistle on those recordings that you've posted here and if you are serious about your questions/concerns that you posted here, then I can't offer you any advise beside keep practicing. Whatever you're trying to do, you'll proably accomplish it by next week.

[Lambchop]

Dear Vincent,
Your intensity about your music is endearing. It's charming and delightful.

However, I have to tell you that none of those things above truly matter. You are focusing on your end goal . . . on where you want to go . . . rather than on the getting there.

This is entirely normal for your age, and I don't mean that to be insulting....

Actually Lambchop I think you're in more danger of being patronizing. While there's wisdom in what you say, you can hardly expect a young person learning the whistle to try to emulate an old person doing the same - to switch from the febrile torment of youth to the complacency of middle age without all those years of living!

What you interpret as competitiveness others might see as a normal, healthy impulse to play as well as possible - sooner rather than later (or, as is the case of many older people learning, or people without the "killer instinct", never).

Anyway, how do you know he's not enjoying the process? You can have a lot of doubts and burning questions and still be totally absorbed and excited.

Well, I see you have put me in my place.

Forgive me. I didn't intend to be patronizing.

It didn't really seem he was having a lot of fun to me. A young person who had been playing only 8 months, yet was considering quitting, thinking he would never be good enough? Who is actually going to let strangers on the internet make the decision about continuing???

Barring the possibility that it was a self-effacing attempt to get kudos, it sure looked depressing and off-focus to me. In what universe is wanting to quit because you're not already perfect "a normal, healthy impulse to play as well as possible"?

I'll just hobble off to the Pub with my walker and leave you young whippersnappers the run of the forum. It's time for my prune juice and Metamucil cocktail, and if I can stay awake long enough, I might wheeze out a tune or two on my flute.

Although I don't know why I continue to bother, as The Great One has indicated it's a hopeless prospect at my advanced and decrepit age. Wallowing in complacency as I am.

[Cynth]

Lambchop, I found your comment about the problem of focusing on the goal rather than on the getting there to be quite apt in my case even though I'm 55. It can lead to paralysis because the goal is so far off and if being there is the main thing keeping you at it, some of us, at least, will be overwhelmed by dissappointment and difficulty. Balancing striving for perfection with taking pride in small steps is really hard and the enjoyment of trying to make music can dissappear. Then you have to stop and figure out just what is going wrong.

Man, how I long for the "complacency of middle age". All those years of living have not smoothed me out or soothed me down a whit. And I wouldn't mind if they had, believe me.

[John S]

Your doing very well Vincent, relax.
As folks have said the only way to learn play fast ornamentation is to play it accurately and slowly lots and lots.
My main instrument is the GHB and we have to learn a lot of very fast ornamentation patterns, I practice them on their own from every note to every other note. This might seem like over kill but it works.
The more you practice the better you will get; the secret is too enjoy your practice and never treat it as a chore.

Good luck

John S

[BlackDeath]

StevieJ: Yes, I know how important that 'swing' is... probably the most important thing when playing jigs. Strangely, with some tunes, it seems to go better than with others... yesterday for instance I listened to a recording of a real virtuoso (17 years old, playing whistle for only a year (and fiddle for two), and already composing his own lovely tunes & playing them masterfully: http://fiddlinviolinin.endofinternet.net/ ) and I once again noticed how far a way I still have to go to even get that 'swing' right. I've been practicing all morning both on the rolls and that rhythm, at a slow speed... I think I'll spend more time working on those things instead of learning new tunes from now on.

Dwinterfield: It is... and I'm delighted to say that this weekend, I might play for dancers for the first time (just for fun) at a folk festival, and I'll probably learn the basics of the steps for a jig (sean nos) ! Looking very much forward to it, hope it will improve my playing too...

Fluti: If I come across the book in the library or a music store I'll certainly look into it, thanks for the tip.

Peeplj: First, thanks for the compliments ;p However it might help me if you could pinpoint exactly what you like about which recorded tune, or say exactly what needs improving (often I'll realise that myself though, and am working on it already).

Azalin: Yep, I'm definately playing 3 or more hours a day... in fact, I just keep my whistle with me all the time, and when I'm not listening to the music and not actively doing something (like posting here :p ) I'm probably playing :p And what you say about a tune getting 'hardcoded' in your brain... there was this one tune, Connaughtman's rambles, with which that already was the case... I'd listened to it numerous times on Steve's page, and on a downloaded old recording from Kevin Burke (homespun violin lessens or something), and of course other recordings... and when I was just playing a bit in the garden, I managed to find the notes and ornaments on the whistle just like that o.O That felt really great ! Unfortunately it hasn't really happened with another tune yet (except for very easy polkas and stuff perhaps).

Eldarion: thanks, the radio programs are surely very interesting. Listening to The Bloom of Youth, however, makes me realise how hopeless I am though ^^

Pete D: Oh please, you are so exaggerating :x Really, I s*ck, compared to a lot of others... But it's nice to read that some people actually do like what they hear already ^.^

A young person who had been playing only 8 months, yet was considering quitting, thinking he would never be good enough?

Well, that's a personal thingy... I won't go into detail, but I easily get discouraged when I find out that I'll never be as good as I hope to be... I've had many hobbies, I often turned out to be quite adapt at them in the beginning, but almost always, due to physical defects or just a lack of talent I quickly found out it would be impossible to get actually good, not just moderate. I am a person that wants to achieve something. Every day we are confronted with things accomplished by people who are among the best at what they do. Be it programmers, drawers, musicians, politicians, businessmen, photographers, craftsman, sportsmen, you name it. People who achieve things in their life. Always am I looking for such a thing, something to render my life useful, to be remembered, to make a difference. And yes, now I'm hoping that I can accomplish this through making music... that is why I need certainty that I can actually become good. Of course not the best, but at least, among the top, of a level that I am satisfied with myself.
Damn, this is getting way too philosophical, nvm that b*llsh*t ;x

Thanks again for the replies everyone,

Vincent

[squidgirl]

I exagerated here and there a bit, but I hope you realise the problem; the coördination between my ring and middle finger of my left hand is sloppy or something I guess.

So, I'm wondering:
- Do other people have similar problems ?
- Will this go away with practice ?
- Is it possible to become 'good' with such a handicap ?
- If so: do people look for variations to work around the problem perhaps

I think that this is not something that's uniquely wrong with you (or me) -- I read somewhere (here? some other music page?) that the ring finger in particular shares tendons or something with other fingers, so it has a hard time being independently coordinated the way one might expect it to. If anyone knows more about this I'd like to hear it... Anyway, both my ring fingers are "slow learners" for sure.

Lambchop, I found your comment about the problem of focusing on the goal rather than on the getting there to be quite apt in my case even though I'm 55. It can lead to paralysis because the goal is so far off and if being there is the main thing keeping you at it, some of us, at least, will be overwhelmed by dissappointment and difficulty. Balancing striving for perfection with taking pride in small steps is really hard and the enjoyment of trying to make music can dissappear. Then you have to stop and figure out just what is going wrong.

This is so true. It happened to me in a big way last year, and I put down my whistles for a number of months -- the frustration just overwhelmed the satisfaction for me.

I've had many hobbies, I often turned out to be quite adapt at them in the beginning, but almost always, due to physical defects or just a lack of talent I quickly found out it would be impossible to get actually good, not just moderate.

I find this a little worrisome, since it seems that you might just be getting discouraged when your learning process reaches a natural plateau -- plateaus in the learning curve are a well known phenomenon in almost every field of endeavor, not an indication that there's a defect or lack of talent on your part. If you keep on plugging along through them, they're usually (eventually, sigh) followed by movement to a new level of ability. Maybe they're just the brain taking has reached its capacity to re-wire itself with what you've learned, and that has to gel before you can move ahead again.

Somewhat akin to this, my time spent non-whistling wasn't a time of regression -- I seem to have returned to it with certain issues having naturally worked themselves out, so that tunes that used to be hard for me are now much easier.

Noel

[Cynth]

squidgirl, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one with that problem. And I'm glad to hear that you got through it. I'm still working on it, but your example gives me some hope of getting through it too. On the positive side, I have been listening almost every day to a CD with a lot of old time singing on it. This was something completely new to me and I am hearing more and liking it more, even loving it more every time I listen to it. So something is happening.

[whiskeylvr]

I picked up a whistle for the first time about 9 months ago. For a month or two I did nothing but play(if you can call the atrocities that were produced playing) until I got frustrated with what I thought was a lack of progress. I stopped playing for quite a few months till I decided to give it another go.

I found the time off and new found patience to be a virute in learning this time around. I found I played better and enjoyed the process much more when I focused on the music more then a time line I set for myself.

In total I have been playing maybe 4 months. I learned to play my first full speed jig last week( The Blackthorn Stick) and Polka this week( Egan's Polka) and am working on Off to California now.

I can play "beginner" ornementation. I can't pull off a roll if my life depended on it.

I figure I'm 25 yrs old. I got a lot of time to learn and hopefully enjoy every minute of it

[Bloomfield]

Well, I am sick of it. Sick, sick, sick to teeth of the bloody tin whistle, and I don't mind telling you so. I'd stop in a heartbeat, be rid of that little squeechy misfit of an instrument, but I can't. The only thing that keeps me going is the prospect of brow-beating hacks on the chiffboard. I love the rise I get when tell I them what they don't understand, making it sound like it's child's play. And I listen to clips & snips for hours just to laugh at the "rolls." Snort! Gets me every time. But, you see, for me the complacency of middle age has been replaced by the malice of old age.