2 Beginner questions: fingering problem & learning by ea

[BlackDeath]

Hi, I've been lurking in this forum a few times, and I hope that I'll be able to find answers to my most important questions here... my apologies if these questions have been asked before - I tried searching for them but wasn't able to find anything in the 100k posts ^^

Anyway, let me begin by introducing myself. I'm 20 years old, and I've been playing whistle since January 1st, so that's 8 months already. I started following private lessons once a week since april, with a very good whistler. I've also been attending sessions, 1 or 2 a month, from as soon as I heard about them. However, I haven't been able to find statisfying answers to my questions... I'm afraid that people generally are too optimistic and afraid to tell the truth; so I was hoping that people could perhaps give me an honest answer here.

To give you an idea of my current level, you can listen to these amateuristic recordings: http://users.pandora.be/BE_BlackDeath/m ... tle/nieuw/

Now, the two questions, which will prolly decide whether or not I continue playing whistle, or continue playing music at all...

First of all, a technical/motorical problem: Most of the 'technique' seems to work fine with me without too many problems. My fingers seemed fast enough to handle the required speed etc... but there are some 'movements' that do give me problems and make the tune sound jerky. Example of this can be found in the B part of the tune 'the banshee'. I can probably best describe it as the 'upward motion, from my index finger of my right hand all the way to my left hand'. Downward seems to be no problem, big jumps are ok, but when every note, or almost every note needs to be played, or with the A roll, the articulation is bad. Also for instance the 2nd measure of the kerfunten jig. Oh what the hell, I won't be able to explain it with words and I don't know notes, so I'll record it to explain the problem...

<deleted to save webspace>

Hope it's a bit clearer now. I exagerated here and there a bit, but I hope you realise the problem; the coördination between my ring and middle finger of my left hand is sloppy or something I guess.

So, I'm wondering:
- Do other people have similar problems ?
- Will this go away with practice ?
- Is it possible to become 'good' with such a handicap ?
- If so: do people look for variations to work around the problem perhaps ?


Then, on to the second question: about being able to pick up a tune by ear. I have succeeded at learning to play a simple polka or simple jig just by listening to a recording (for example the recording of 'old man dillon' and 'ballydesmond' on my webspace were learned by ear), but at other times, with more difficult tunes (any reel, unless played at rediculously slow speed, or just more difficult jigs), or when the instrument is tuned slightly different than my own whistle, I find it impossible to learn... I've been trying to learn the congress reel this way, for instance. My teacher recorded it, but played fairly quickly. Even after listening to it for like 50 times, and being able to lilt / sing it, I get totally lost when I try to actually play it. Anyway, I guess I'm just not very good at it... yet ?

My question is simple: will I get better at copying music by ear ? I know I will never get an absolute hearing (edit: 'perfect pitch' in correct English I think), or I prolly won't be able to just pick up tunes played at a session, but I do hope that I will once be able to learn tunes by ear from a recording or tune-learning session... will I get better at that ? Can I practice it ?

edit: btw, feel free to give other comments, tips, suggestions on my whistle playing !


Thanks for your time / help,

Vincent

(Belgium)

[fancypiper]

<snip>

I'm 20 years old, and I've been playing whistle since January 1st, so that's 8 months already

<snip>

Now, the two questions, which will prolly decide whether or not I continue playing whistle, or continue playing music at all...

<snip>

So, I'm wondering:
- Do other people have similar problems ?
- Will this go away with practice ?
- Is it possible to become 'good' with such a handicap ?
- If so: do people look for variations to work around the problem perhaps ?


Then, on to the second question: about being able to pick up a tune by ear. I have succeeded at learning to play a simple polka or simple jig just by listening to a recording

<snip>

My question is simple: will I get better at copying music by ear ? I know I will never get an absolute hearing, or I prolly won't be able to just pick up tunes played at a session, but I do hope that I will once be able to learn tunes by ear from a recording or tune-learning session... will I get better at that ? Can I practice it ?

Ah, the impatience of youth!

1. Yes
2. Most likely
3. Yes
4. Yes

Give yourself 7 years with the instrument and then compare today with that future date.

If you have classical music training, you may have some "unlearning" problems, but it comes with practice. My worst stumbling block was the B roll (after I got the A roll down).

[Wormdiet]

Then, on to the second question: about being able to pick up a tune by ear. I have succeeded at learning to play a simple polka or simple jig just by listening to a recording (for example the recording of 'old man dillon' and 'ballydesmond' on my webspace were learned by ear), but at other times, with more difficult tunes (any reel, unless played at rediculously slow speed, or just more difficult jigs), or when the instrument is tuned slightly different than my own whistle, I find it impossible to learn... I've been trying to learn the congress reel this way, for instance. My teacher recorded it, but played fairly quickly. Even after listening to it for like 50 times, and being able to lilt / sing it, I get totally lost when I try to actually play it. Anyway, I guess I'm just not very good at it... yet ?

My question is simple: will I get better at copying music by ear ? I know I will never get an absolute hearing, or I prolly won't be able to just pick up tunes played at a session, but I do hope that I will once be able to learn tunes by ear from a recording or tune-learning session... will I get better at that ? Can I practice it ?

I am going through something similar - been playing flute for six months or so, and have run into the "learn by ear" approach. I started off learning music by sheetmusic, through several instruments, as a kid. While I could also pick up the occasional tune by ear, I was more comfortable using the dots.

I think the secret to learning by ear is patience. What I do is to start at the beginning of a tune, play a short enough chunk that it's no problem to hum it, and then play it until it sounds right. Then, rinse and repeat using FF and RW. There's no way I could learn a whole tune of any complexity without breaking it up into small or minute chunks first. It does take a while for me to learn this way. But, having seen good ear-learners at work recently, my sense is that it gradually gets easier and easier. There's a point at which one can automatically "hum" a tune with fingers without one's conscious thoughts interrupting the process - once that's achieved, I think picking up tunes (And varying, and learning at sessions, etc.) goes a lot faster.

I made a resolution NOT to use sheetmusic for several months to test out these theories.

[GaryKelly]

Use a slowdowner. It makes life (or rather learning by ear) considerably easier.

[chas]

If you're even attempting A rolls after eight months, you're doing a lot better than I did. It's quite normal to go through these growing pains, and with practice the mechanical problems you cite will go away.

As Gary said, a slowdowner may be what you need. I use Transcribe, which can slow down a tune without changing the pitch, and also change the pitch without affecting the speed. There's another called the Amazing Slowdowner, which I think does the same thing. They're available at Cnet, or you can search Google or Yahoo.

[fifefighter]

I'm three months old in learning the whistle, with cd and sheet music, it helps tremendously. I always learned from ear but also get as many help from cd's and sheet music.

It was also suggested to break it down. This is the best thing to do to tackle a difficult measure. When I was impatient and could not get it, I rest and just practice slowly that difficult part.

[StevieJ]

Hi Vincent

I listened to your "problems" clip as well as couple of the others. It's obvious that you have the potential to play really well, especially since you've only been at it a short time.

I think what you need at the moment is to slow down a bit and concentrate on getting a really solid rhythm and good phrasing. Being able to bring out the rhythm of a tune, to make a good reading or a good statement of what it has to say rhythmically and melodically, is much more important than speed and much more important than being able to play this or that ornament. Strive for clarity, let speed come when it is ready.

I'd suggest listening to a lot of solo playing of other instruments, particularly pipes, flutes and fiddles, and especially fiddles since they can swing like no other instrument.

To develop the clarity of your rolls I'd suggest working on them in even rhythm rather than the scrunched-up variety you're attempting at the moment. Try the dah-blah-method at http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... olls0.html and the following pages. Once you have them really working well at this rhythm, you can elongate the first part of roll a bit, it'll probably just happen naturally.

I think the rest of the problems you list will just fall into place naturally as you keep at it.

Hope this helps
Steve

[BlackDeath]

Wow, could you actually be *the* 'Brother Steve' from the website ? In that case, I'm very honored to be talking to you through this forum, and that you take the time to listen to my soundclips and help me ! I've read through your site multiple times and it's helped me loads... nice content & soundclips, but also nice layout, and the humor is just lovely ! I should probably go through it some more though, as I still don't have the feeling that I'm doing certain things the way they're supposed to be done... indeed, like the rolls. Actually, I think that I use three different kinds of rolls (of which 2 are actual rolls as in first cutting the higher note and then tapping the lower - I sometimes use 2 cuts, for example in the B party of 'the cliffs of moher' on the E, where I'll first lift the G finger and then the E finger itself, which sounds nice imo, but isn't a roll... does anyone else actually do this ?). Sometimes I use the 'dah-blah-dah' roll, but I admit I seem to do that very rarely, and it seems a lot more difficult... sometimes it sounds nicer, but mostly the 'quick', 'postponed' (how to call it :/ ) roll comes more natural to me... and I guess it's not as obvious when I play it sloppy.

But you are right: I have the bad habbit of playing way too fast ! I just like it when the music is played faster; at sessions, on recordings etc. In the future, I'll pay more attention to playing at a slower speed. Because well, obviously I'm not anywhere near good enough to be playing at such a speed ;x

I already have 'PaceMaker', a plugin for Winamp, which allows you to slow down tunes without changing the pitch. I admit I used it to slow down tunes about 20% when learning for instance old man dillon and ballydesmond, doubt I'd have been able to learn them otherwise :/


Anyway, thanks a lot everyone for the (quick) help & advice, and the stimulating replies :) If it's true that the abovementioned problems can be overcome with practice, then that was the motivation I needed to continue playing whistle ;)

[fancypiper]

Yes, it's dance music after all, so a solid "groove" or rhythm is the prime consideration.

What you are doing on the E is called a crann, and it is always a good substitute for an E roll. It is a common ornament used by most if not all whistle/pipe/flute players.

You will find that as you progress in your "ear training", you will learn to "listen faster" and then you will find that your "crutches" are no longer an impediment between the sound and the ears, then the muscles. Soon you will be able to go from "listening" to a tune and then suddenly finding it has jumped "under your fingers" and you can play it after hearing it a few times.

I have lots of tunes that I can play, but I can't start out for some strange reason...

[fluti31415]

Hi Vincent

I listened to your "problems" clip as well as couple of the others. It's obvious that you have the potential to play really well, especially since you've only been at it a short time.

I think what you need at the moment is to slow down a bit and concentrate on getting a really solid rhythm and good phrasing. Being able to bring out the rhythm of a tune, to make a good reading or a good statement of what it has to say rhythmically and melodically, is much more important than speed and much more important than being able to play this or that ornament. Strive for clarity, let speed come when it is ready.

I'd suggest listening to a lot of solo playing of other instruments, particularly pipes, flutes and fiddles, and especially fiddles since they can swing like no other instrument.

To develop the clarity of your rolls I'd suggest working on them in even rhythm rather than the scrunched-up variety you're attempting at the moment. Try the dah-blah-method at http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/b ... olls0.html and the following pages. Once you have them really working well at this rhythm, you can elongate the first part of roll a bit, it'll probably just happen naturally.

I think the rest of the problems you list will just fall into place naturally as you keep at it.

Hope this helps
Steve

Yes, exactly what he said.

My advice (FWIW): Start by playing it so painfully slow that you know you will not make a single mistake. When you practice fast, your muscles learn the mistakes, so make sure you never (well rarely) make a mistake when you are practicing. And if you do make a mistake, don't make the same mistake twice. Go back to a slower tempo, and play it five times correctly. I know that I make much more progress by going slowly than by trying to rush. In another few months, you'll be surprised. In another year, you'll be advising other newbies.

[StewySmoot]

You will get faster and better the more you practice. You can read my blog at
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=27245

The important thing to remember is that everyone hits walls but the best part of hitting it is realizing, without consciously knowing it, is that you have broken through.

And you will be amazed at how much you will have accomplished....



Until you hit the next, bigger,thicker wall.

[Lambchop]

Deleted.

[StevieJ]

Dear Vincent,
Your intensity about your music is endearing. It's charming and delightful.

However, I have to tell you that none of those things above truly matter. You are focusing on your end goal . . . on where you want to go . . . rather than on the getting there.

This is entirely normal for your age, and I don't mean that to be insulting....

Actually Lambchop I think you're in more danger of being patronizing. While there's wisdom in what you say, you can hardly expect a young person learning the whistle to try to emulate an old person doing the same - to switch from the febrile torment of youth to the complacency of middle age without all those years of living!

What you interpret as competitiveness others might see as a normal, healthy impulse to play as well as possible - sooner rather than later (or, as is the case of many older people learning, or people without the "killer instinct", never).

Anyway, how do you know he's not enjoying the process? You can have a lot of doubts and burning questions and still be totally absorbed and excited.

[BlackDeath]

Thank you all for the interesting replies again. I do understand what you mean, Lambchop, but I can assure you, like StevieJ mentioned, that I am indeed very passionate about the music, and I enjoy playing it tremendously much. I enjoy every tune that I play, be it alone while practicing in front of the PC or in the garden, with a select audience, or at a session together with real musicians that I look up to.

But, the most satisfying moments in my short 'musical career' were those where I was recognised and complimented by others. The actual reason (or certainly one of the most important ones) for me playing is not just because I love it myself, but because I want others to love what I play, introduce them to the music, make them discover something beautiful.
Like last thursday, after a session that ended way too early, we went to a very beautiful spot near a river, where there are always many openminded people sitting until late at night. I played some tunes to a girl who joined us and hadn't really heard Irish music before... not alone did she like it, but not much later, another girl (and migod it wuz a purty one) who was sitting with some more people nearby along the river came walking towards me asking if I could please play that tune again cuz they all liked it very much, and join them in a drink... wonderful night that was !

See, for me that is the highest level of satisfaction: introducing people to this wonderful music that I fell in love with...

And yes, I would like to get as good as possible as fast as possible. Is that competitive, is that obsessive, healthy or not... it's my nature, I've had it with other hobbies too... so no, it's not my teacher who promotes/encourages it, he would probably discourage it even, as he always keeps repeating how 'everyone learns at his own speed' and how 'you have to compare yourself only to yourself and look at the progress you made'.

What playing slowly concerns; this morning I played through my limited repertoir again, but every tune at about half the speed. I was surprised at how difficult that actually was, and how many more mistakes I seemed to play ^^. I'm just not sure that this what I need though. According to my teacher my rhythm is quite good already (well, jigs that is... I only just learned reels the way I play them now for about a week or 2 or 3), and I don't seem to find it easier to play with a correct rhythm/feeling when I play slowly than when I play faster.

Oh, and I do listen very much to recordings. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it: I have downloaded a lot of traditional music. It's just that listening to the music is so important, and if I'd have to buy all the albums, well... I just totally don't have the money for it, being a student... I can barely pay for the traintrips and lessons, on top of regularly going out during the weekends... I do occasionally buy albums btw, but only those that I can't find online, or which I like particularly much, like certain jigpunk / folkrock.
And another edit (and totally offtopic, sorry): thank god for the possibility to download this kind of music. If not for these MP3's I would have never, or at least not so soon, have come in contact with this wonderful music... and I would have never bought any album, instead of the occasional one now...

When you practice fast, your muscles learn the mistakes, so make sure you never (well rarely) make a mistake when you are practicing.

This is the first time that I hear this, but I must admit it makes sense... I will pay more attention to it.

Thanks again for the very interesting content & the help,

Vincent

[StevieJ]

I don't seem to find it easier to play with a correct rhythm when I play slowly than when I play fast.

It's not easier! It's definitely harder, at first.

But as far as rhythm is concerned, if you're really sure about what you're trying to do, you will be able to do it slowly. If you can't play in good rhythm slowly, then there is almost no chance of your being able to do it fast. (I'm not really talking about keeping a steady beat, important as that is: I mean playing with a good swing, bringing out the rhythm of the type of dance-tune properly).

Playing slowly will highlight the defects in your rhythm and your general uncertainty- very useful.