Man shot on Tube

[TomB]

Eyewitnesses are incredibly inaccurate. Unless there is a security camera that the government is willing to be seen publicly, I would not take much stock in anything anyone “witnessed”.

Yes, I know. However, if everyone present says he jumped and his cousin says no, he has a pass, I would go with the jumpers.

Tom

If all of the witnesses agree then I would be even more suspicious. I would wonder what questions were being asked and who was asking them. I do not trust the cousin’s account, because he was not there (and has reason to be bias). As I said before. Without a security camera that the police are willing to allow the public to see, we will not know the truth.

It seems that we agree on the main point though. I just feel the need to try to dispel the myth that witnesses are reliable sources of information.

I'll grant you that. I was not actually trying to say that, but really, just that because he had a pass, doens't mean he didn't jump. I think there is still more information to be had.

All the Best, Tom

[s1m0n]

I believe the reports said he jumped because men with guns were chasing him, not because of the lack of a pass.

He'd just got off a bus, so he obviously had the fare--a pass or a transfer or whatever it is London uses.

[TomB]

I believe the reports said he jumped because men with guns were chasing him, not because of the lack of a pass..

Thus, my point.

[Martin Milner]

I believe the reports said he jumped because men with guns were chasing him, not because of the lack of a pass.

He'd just got off a bus, so he obviously had the fare--a pass or a transfer or whatever it is London uses.

It is quite possible to have a bus pass that does not allow travel on the tube, ot he could have paid the bus fare in case.

I'm wondering why the Police allowed him onto a bus - we have had a bus blown up too.

[TomB]

I believe the reports said he jumped because men with guns were chasing him, not because of the lack of a pass.

He'd just got off a bus, so he obviously had the fare--a pass or a transfer or whatever it is London uses.

It is quite possible to have a bus pass that does not allow travel on the tube, ot he could have paid the bus fare in case.

I was going to say that, but it's been so long ago that I lived in the area that I wasn't sure about it. Thanks.

I did not know that he had been on a bus.

Tom

[GaryKelly]

Daily Kos! Well, no more mainstream media for me. If the prince of the gadflies is quoting "Daily Kos" as his source, it must be The One True Voice of reason in this topsy-turvy world. No more BBC for me.

Eyewitnesses are incredibly inaccurate. Unless there is a security camera that the government is willing to be seen publicly, I would not take much stock in anything anyone “witnessed”.

Yup. Nice to know that every conviction ever obtained in a trial by jury is unsafe, and that the Criminal Justice system in practically every country in the world is based on complete pants like witnesses. Unless of course a security camera caught the criminal in the act.
<In a Chief WIggum voice> "Open the jails, boys, let 'em all out. Except that liquor store guy, the one they got on camera."

Video is <in a reverent voice> god! Just ask the boys at Industrial Light and Magic. It can't be faked. Steve McQueen really did make all those commercials years after he died.

:roll:

If there is any CCTV footage from the concourse or platforms of Stockwell Tube Station, it's evidence in ongoing enquiries. Just like the jacket (padded or otherwise) and the toolbelt (always assuming it exists, I didn't see it mentioned in Daily Kos). None of it will be released until the enquiries are over, and even then it's unlikely if the actual shooting has been captured on tape (the Home Office would likely classify it as unfit for public release, particularly out of respect for the deceased's family).

Enquiries like these take time. They have to be thorough, and it has to be done by the book. That way not even the Daily Kos can find fault with the procedures. But you can bet if there *is* any cover-up, the Daily Kos will let us know.

[missy]

GaryKelly wrote:
"Enquiries like these take time. They have to be thorough, and it has to be done by the book."

I know I jokingly said that this sounds like what's been going on here for several years..... Now it REALLY does sound like Cincinnati!

Hmmmmmm - I've got the names of several "prominant" people and an activist group that I'm sure would love to fly on over and make sure everything is done correctly. And I know most of the citizens HERE would love to get rid of them. Plus, I think one of them is running for City Council - so that would also take care of that!

Gary - I hope for London's sake this doesn't drag on and on for years, and that the findings are believed. It get really old really quickly when they aren't.

[buskerSean]

English papers reported today that the police told the reletives of the dead man he was NOT wearing a heavy coat nor jumped the turnstiles.

Remember, shortly after the shooting the police claimed the incident was definatley linked to the bombing investigations.

[TomB]

English papers reported today that the police told the reletives of the dead man he was NOT wearing a heavy coat nor jumped the turnstiles.

Remember, shortly after the shooting the police claimed the incident was definatley linked to the bombing investigations.

I guess there is new info since Martin gave us the link to the Guardian. Interesting, thanks.

Tom

[I.D.10-t]

Yup. Nice to know that every conviction ever obtained in a trial by jury is unsafe, and that the Criminal Justice system in practically every country in the world is based on complete pants like witnesses. Unless of course a security camera caught the criminal in the act.
<In a Chief WIggum voice> "Open the jails, boys, let 'em all out. Except that liquor store guy, the one they got on camera."

In some instances, eyewitnesses can be useful if the exposure is over a long period, the witness is alert at the time (but not alarmed) and the lighting is consistent.

This is not the description I have heard. The witnesses involved were probably given a brief view with lots of confusion. I do not know what your tube is like, but I would assume that near the entrance there is a dramatic change of lighting that could also affect vision.

Questioning can also imprint memories that may not have been there too. Ask someone at the scene of an accident two questions.

Did you see the yield sign?
Did you see a yield sign?

The people that are asked the first question are more likely to say yes. Eyewitnesses are an old tool, and can be effective, but in this case, I do not think that the truth about this incident will be learned. In general, their testimony is given way too much weight in a case compared to its accuracy.

Video is <in a reverent voice> god! Just ask the boys at Industrial Light and Magic. It can't be faked. Steve McQueen really did make all those commercials years after he died.

:roll:

I guess I did not know that the police in London were that corrupt. If it is true that they would fake a surveillance video, I guess I can see your point. The LAPD has forced confessions of murder from innocent children and planted evidence. You would know the police over there better than me.

[SteveShaw]

There's a lot of irrelevant nit-picking going on here. Even before we banned the death penalty here in 1967 you had to be convicted by due process of law of first-degree murder before you could be legally executed and you would normally have the right to appeal. You would not have expected then and do not now expect to be put to death summarily for wearing a thick coat/carrying a rucksack/running when chased by an armed posse/jumping over a turnstile/not having an up-to-date visa/being brown/acting stupid/being seen to leave a "suspicious" house. Not for any one of these things, not even if you've done all of them. What happened to this poor man was not "regrettable:" it was plain wrong, and whoever supplied the pursuing police with their incorrect information was guilty of exercising, improperly, the power of life and death over the guy and needs to be brought to account. And I don't think the fellow(s) who pumped the bullets should feel too good about it either.

Steve

[Wanderer]

You would not have expected then and do not now expect to be put to death summarily for wearing a thick coat/carrying a rucksack/running when chased by an armed posse/jumping over a turnstile/not having an up-to-date visa/being brown/acting stupid/being seen to leave a "suspicious" house

Oh, I dunno about that. I think that if you act stupid in just the right way, you can pretty easily get yourself shot by a cop just about anywhere.

[SteveShaw]

You would not have expected then and do not now expect to be put to death summarily for wearing a thick coat/carrying a rucksack/running when chased by an armed posse/jumping over a turnstile/not having an up-to-date visa/being brown/acting stupid/being seen to leave a "suspicious" house

Oh, I dunno about that. I think that if you act stupid in just the right way, you can pretty easily get yourself shot by a cop just about anywhere.

I know, I know...we've always sort of prided ourselves on having unarmed police - generally, daily on our streets at least (don't want to get too romantic about that before anyone says I'm naive - they will now anyway ) and I think this business has come as a nasty shock to a lot of us. God, we even saw armed cops on our local news bulletin at Exeter St. David's railway station tonight - as a precaution, it being Thursday and all that... My point is that it is plain wrong that it should have happened and I think that talking about the fine points of what he was wearing, why he ran, etc. etc. is subtly adjusting our mindsets into blaming him ~somewhat~ for this innocent man's own grisly demise. All the blame lies elsewhere and I'm not budging on that.

Steve

[ChrisLaughlin]

Daily Kos! Well, no more mainstream media for me. If the prince of the gadflies is quoting "Daily Kos" as his source, it must be The One True Voice of reason in this topsy-turvy world. No more BBC for me.

Gary, if you had bothered to read the post you would have realized that the sources, as quoted, are The Guardian and The Independent, which are, unless I am mistaken, highly respected "mainstream media" sources. A poster at KOS provided excerpts, links and his own commentary in a very clear presentation, which is why I linked to his post rather than to the original articles.

As for your personal attack on me, calling me "The Prince of Gadflies" - I'm a bit confused about where this came from. At no time, in my memory, have I addressed you in such a manner, nor do I see any reason why I would do so. Perhaps you could explain to me what provoked this behaviour on your part?

As for the BBC - yes, it remains my number one news source as well.

In peace,
Chris

[Martin Milner]

In the Metro today, the latest report is that the Jean Charles de Menezes' visa was forged.

From the BBC website:

The UK Home Office has issued a statement explaining that Mr Menezes' student visa had expired in 2003.

It also implied that a passport stamp apparently giving him the right to stay in Britain indefinitely was not genuine.

The Brazilian foreign ministry responded with a statement saying that irrespective of Mr Menezes' status, the police were still responsible for the death of an innocent man.

On Wednesday, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva spoke by telephone to Mr Menezes' father.

He is said to have explained that the UK government has formally apologised for the death and promised compensation for the family.

Of course in no way does this mean the poor man should be shot dead for not having a valid visa, but it may explain why he acted in a suspicious and guilty manner, arousing Police suspicions.