Whistle techniques

[Richard Katz]

I was playing at a session this week and I played "The Pipe on the Hob" on my whistle. I used of lot of tongueing with the phrasing throughout the tune.
I was told by the fellow sitting next to me, who is an accomplished Irish flute player, that tonqueing was not correct. He stated that "you should never tongue in a tune". He said that all cuts and gracings are done using only your fingering as in piping.
I was taught differently. The other whistle player at the table agreed with me that he also tongues during phrasing as well.
So...who is correct. To tongue or not to tongue..that is the question!
Anxiously awaiting the answer. Thanks!

[fearfaoin]

Way to open the proverbial can o' worms, Richard!

Pipes can't tongue. So, if you come from the view point that proper tradition requires
flutes/whistles to emulate pipes, then tonguing = Not Good.

Many people embrace that, and many don't. I'd say find a happy medium. I try to only
tongue when necessary, and use ornamentation otherwise.

[notus]

One vote for the tongue. The elves use it all the time. Just ask Sandy Jasper at Elfsong! May not be the MOST traditional approach but does it communicate?

I've heard plenty of music that I would consider to be "incorrect" but it usually involves banging the head against imaginary objects... :roll:

[fearfaoin]

So...who is correct. To tongue or not to tongue..that is the question!

Now that I reread this, I think this is too loaded a question to answer...
Perhaps you need to explicitly narrow the field, for example:
"Is it correct to tongue at all at a traditional session?"

Otherwise, you'll get a lot of answers about tonguing in non-traditional settings,
which is far more subjective...

[peeplj]

For myself, I would say tongueing is a perfectly good articulation on whistle. I have heard some very fine players use it, so I wouldn't worry overly much.

Even on flute you can articulate using more than just your fingers--glottal stops work fine on flute. Some flute players (including some good ones) also tongue as well, but I think a stronger case can be made for not tonguing on flute than on whistle.

Peter Laban would be a good one to run this question by, he has the background to know how many of the finest players have used it and whether its use is increasing or not.

--James

[FJohnSharp]

I think a really helpful thing would be to do a search for 'tongue' and 'tonguing' on the boards. There have been many involved discussions on the subject.

[Whitmores75087]

Big topic. It's hard not to tongue. I had a hard time quitting. Once you do, the music sounds better and you can go faster. And you get people off your case.

[PhilO]

Being myself an amatuer and learning player, I have tended to use tongueing too much and have been cautioned about it by my teacher. As a former drummer and one drawn to the beat of things, my playing at times took on an inappropriate staccato phrasing instead of the desired lilt. That said, however, there are places where my teacher suggested I use tongueing to make a tune come more alive. Therefore, I think tongueing=bad is rediculous, but it should be used where and when (generally sparingly)it makes the music work even better.

Philo

[TonyHiggins]

Listen to some recordings of accomplished whistle players like Laurence Nugent, Mary Bergin, Paddy Moloney, Sean Potts, and you'll hear plenty of tonguing. Yes, it sounds terrible if over done. If done in the right places, it sounds great.

Then there's the thing about hard and fast rules regarding ITM. Phttttt! Individual style is encouraged within ill-defined parameters. It sounds 'right' or it doesn't. Record yourself playing with more and with less tonguing and see what it sounds like. You can't be as objective while you're playing.
Tony

[brianholton]

well, if you look at Grey Larsen's book, you'll see that many of the great Irish players tongue on the whistle, but don't on the flute.

Scottish whistle players tongue much more than Irish ones.

Nobody's "right" on this. Play the way that feels right to you, and the way that brings out the beauty of the tune best.

b

[Cynth]

I've heard that people use different amounts of tonguing. In the Grey Larson book, which I'm using as a tutorial, he recommends not tonguing, i.e playing in the legato style of pipes, and then adding tonguing in places in which you want to emphasize the note or have a staccato note. But he doesn't say it is a rule, just his recommendation for beginners.

[fancypiper]

I use all techniques that I have learned for the whistle.

I do tend to use more "piping" techniques as I play the UPs as well, but I tongue quite a bit to emulate the UPs tight triplets (the so-called double tonguing).

Check out Sean Ryan's "Minstrels Fancy" and "Take the Air" for good examples of the double tonguing technique.

[kenny]

Play the music how YOU want to, Richard. Don't let anyone tell you what's "right" or "wrong". Listen to advice, by all means, but you don't have to accept it. The choice is entirely up to you.

[ISU Trout Bum]

In the "Mad for Trad Whistle Tutorial", Brian Finnegan encourages tounging, especially on high notes. Obviously he follows his own rules on this - just listen to "Eb Reels" on "Flatfish" (especially if you have a program that slows the song down) - its nothing but tounging. Granted, that is not necessarily a "Trad" song, at least in the way that he plays it. So, it seems to suggest that it's ok to do in some (a lot?) of places in a song. But it probably all depends on the song, and the context of the session (as one earlier post correctly put it - is it a Trad session, or more "open"?). Plus, I'm in favor of tounging because I'm not good at much else - :roll: !

[monkey587]

Hey Richard, it's William from Sheltering Sky.

I know the flute player in question; I've played with him at several sessions and even played a killer gig with him a few months ago. He's been kindof a mentor to me and offered me a lot of useful help. My gut feeling (although I can't really speak for him) is that he just felt something wasn't working and was trying to help the music to flow, because in my experience it's unusual for him to offer such unsolicited advice.

So, I guess I have two more things to say about it...
1) He's a wonderful player but it's not like he's the number one authority on whistle, so you can take his advice with a grain of salt
2) He's one of the nicest and most supportive people I've ever met and would probably only be offering such advice in the interest of genuinely helping others, so considering accepting his advice and giving it some honest effort. The worst that can happen is you'll gain access to a wider variety of techniques.