Low D Whistles: Is One Enough?

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:23 am

Like it or dislike it Jan Erik, I think the other side of this market oriented thinking is that makers who have ten, fifteen, twenty year and growing waiting lists that will keep them busy (if they keep it up and if they survive) until well after their 70th birthdays can afford the luxury of picking the customers they like to serve and the prices at which they choose to do it. And if the yget young people knocking on the door who need a good instrument and they choose to let them by-pass the waiting list at a reasonable and affordable price, i can only say: fair play to them.

tin tin · Post by **tin tin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:26 am

I see some valid points being made on both sides of the argument, but I think much of the 'buy as much as you can afford' smacks of materialism. (Although there can be an inverse sort of materialism in proudly proclaiming 'I've played the same cheap whistle since 1942, so I'm better than those with a shiny new high-ender.')
I appreciate TeriK's post...I grew up similarly (playing flute). As I got better, I grew into better instruments. I now have one simple system flute that I like very well. It's not perfect in every regard, and I sometimes would love to try/have an instrument by maker X, but I've still got a lot of time to put in before needing to change instruments.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:28 am

That is a problem about getting more apprentices interested. Apprentices can't be paid very much---it would probably be akin to something a graduate student would earn I think--- and if they are learning to do something difficult the apprenticeship would have to last a number of years, at least four if not more. I don't know if instrument makers could even afford to pay apprentices. Somewhat older people who have been around and have discovered a deep interest in instrument making have usually already committed themselves to a lifestyle that demands more income----a family, home, insurance needs, etc. Probably most younger people, say talented ones out of highschool, have not even been exposed to the idea of instrument making as a career. It really is a problem.

Not everyone can make a bit of money engineering software. That takes special talent too I think. From the books I've seen that people in that line of work have to study, I don't think it is easy. Given equal talent for both sorts of careers and having heard of both sorts of careers, engineering software may seem like a more secure career. I can't really fault a person for wanting some security----some people have been brought up with this as a goal, especially those whose parents have lived through hard times.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:42 am

Peter Laban wrote: And if the yget young people knocking on the door who need a good instrument and they choose to let them by-pass the waiting list at a reasonable and affordable price, i can only say: fair play to them.

Amen!

Jan Erik · Post by **Jan Erik** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:49 am

Peter Laban wrote:Like it or dislike it Jan Erik, I think the other side of this market oriented thinking is that makers who have ten, fifteen, twenty year and growing waiting lists that will keep them busy (if they keep it up and if they survive) until well after their 70th birthdays can afford the luxury of picking the customers they like to serve and the prices at which they choose to do it. And if the yget young people knocking on the door who need a good instrument and they choose to let them by-pass the waiting list at a reasonable and affordable price, i can only say: fair play to them.

Peter,

I think the pricing suggested would be a good solution to the problem you state. I have no problem with pipemakers selling to whomever they want at whatever price they want, delivering whenever they want. Let those with deep pockets subsidise the less fortunate.

As to pipes purchased by ones who will never be able to play them, who cares how long they have to wait, or how much they have to pay?

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:23 am

colomon wrote: Easier, but is it more lucrative? I don't know about pipe making, but those numbers I just cited for accordion suggest a talented repairman could easily make $70,000 a year working 40 hours a week. There aren't too many software jobs I'm aware of that pay that kind of money for that kind of schedule, and let you work for yourself in the bargin. It would be surprising in the long run if at least a few people didn't take up the torch.

According to salary.com, the median income for Software Engineer I's is about 50,000 a year. This is for someone with 0-2 years experience. (the low end is in the 40's). For Software Engineer III (4-6 years), the median income it's in the 70's. For Software Engineer IV (8 years or so), mid 80's.

These numbers are a little high from what I'd expect..but I am used to living in areas that have lower costs of living than the nation average. I can say that I make more (at 14 years experience) writing software than I'd make 40 hours a week repairing concertinas.

Though with concertina repair, you probably don't have to worry so much about turbulent job loss when the "concertina bubble" collapses

Cynth wrote: Not everyone can make a bit of money engineering software. That takes special talent too I think. From the books I've seen that people in that line of work have to study, I don't think it is easy.

Thanks for that Cynth..it's absolutely true. Just like music, for those with talent, software is easy. The rest have to struggle for competence. That doesn't make them bad programmers. They just have to work harder.

Sadly for me (but happily for my bank account), I have a lot more natural talent in software than with music

tubafor · Post by **tubafor** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:52 am

OK - I'm gonna throw one more oar in the water, and then run for higher ground...

My reason for multiples of one key (5 or 6 low D's, for example) is the character of each of the whistles. I don't have more than one of a certain maker's instruments in a certain key, although there are exceptions. But then I choose the whistle according to the demands of the song I'm playing - do I want a more pure sound, or one with more complexity? What's the range of the song, and which whistle works best in that range?

Having those kinds of choices allows me to use the right tool for the job, so to speak. Since I'm playing a number of styles, the different songs have different requirements to play. So, I can choose the whistle to fit the song.

That's my story. And me and my legion of whistles are stickin' to it.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:54 am

But I don't think music or software stuff is easy for the people with talent. You know there is that saying that talent is 90% perspiraton and 10% inspiration. It could be that being talented enables a person to work harder and stick with it---they have the passion that won't let them stop. But I think the sweat is there for every step of the way in any field.

I think a hard-working talented person (one who has some inborn facilty for something, I guess) would probably be able to achieve more in the long run than a hard working non-talented person. But those of us who are not particularly talented can achieve a lot----although I really doubt I could achieve anything in the software field

. I think I could possibly struggle to learn a few tunes on the whistle, but this too is doubtful.

I'm sure you had to work hard to learn your software work. It may seem easy compared to music because you have a greater facility for the software type of thinking. The world needs all kinds of talents.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:59 am

tubafor

I think you're safe. This is a pretty low key discussion really. And whistles aren't scarce. I wouldna thrown that one oar in the water though---won't that leave you one short?

BillChin · Post by **BillChin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:23 pm

Cynth wrote:... Given equal talent for both sorts of careers and having heard of both sorts of careers, engineering software may seem like a more secure career. ...

I would say nay, though there are those that beat the odds. I volunteered at a local job center for two years, helping unemployed people get their resumes together, hone their interview skills and start their job search. There were a large number of computer professionals with dismal prospects for the next job.

The trick with tech is that every two or three years there is a new product cycle. If the company you are working with is not on this leading edge, by the time you are ready for your next job, your skills may be obsolete. You often have to settle for a backwater job, and the next time you are even in worse shape. And this is normal circumstances. God forbid, if you have an illness or family crisis and are out of the work force for an extended period. People often have better luck with a History or English degree vs. people with a degree in computers and dated skills.

I read an article saying that the average length of career for computer programmers is less than that for professional football players. Even if it is remotely true, it is sobering news. My nephews are deciding on careers, and I tell them go into computer related fields if you love it, but do not do it because you think it is a degree that has high market value. It may, but primarily for the hot shots, like the top football prospects, not the average person or student.

Again, back to instrument making, I still think more demand is a nice problem to have and can be solved any number of ways, some of which are being attempted. It sure beats no market at all and having skilled instruments makers forced to work menial jobs to pay the rent.

Feadin · Post by **Feadin** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:24 pm

Peter Laban wrote: [...] And if the yget young people knocking on the door who need a good instrument and they choose to let them by-pass the waiting list at a reasonable and affordable price, i can only say: fair play to them.

I think this is a different point of view than the previous.
I agree that a maker is completely free of choosing what to do with his instruments. And as far as I'm concerned there's no point on a 1+ years waiting list, so many things can happen in that time...

And I don't like that idea of charging more to foreigners when purchasing an instrument, I'm a programmer/system administrator (linux) and my income in dollars is the equivalent of about 10th percent of a medium-range US Software Engineer

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:29 pm

Feadin wrote: And I don't like that idea of charging more to foreigners when purchasing an instrument, I'm a programmer/system administrator (linux) and my income in dollars is the equivalent of about 10th percent of a medium-range US Software Engineer

Ofcourse there isn't a special price for forreigners, and don't misunderstand me: there shouldn't be, but there are sometimes different rules for different people. A maker of (I think) Northumbrian pipes was mentioned here a while ago, he charged his customers the same as their own hourly wage for his hours making their instrument. Kind of liked that approach although I can see problems in practice.

TheKingPrawn · Post by **TheKingPrawn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:37 pm

I'm salaried, so the hourly thing wouldn't work out too well for him if he charged me that way, espescially if you add in the time at sea technically working 24/7 for a couple of months at a time.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:01 pm

So if there are a wife, twins and a husband with five low d's. That should be enough. When the twins are in the fifth or sixth grade and the other kids are playing recorders, the twins will have these realy cool whistles and the family will be able to make music togeather. Might keep the fifth whistle in case the stork comes again. Then there would be a whistle quintent. Wow!

a session and never have to leave home for it. Or sell one and buy a squeeze box.

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:35 pm

Ok, I am going to weigh in here.

I have been known as a collector, though I have liquidated the vast majority of my collection to pay for one special instrument that I don't deserve. Peter has a very valid point about good up-and-coming players having to wait longer than they should for a good instrument because collectors are ahead of them on a list (and if I were a maker of instruments, the idea of one of my best instruments living in a box, unplayed, would really bother me deeply), and I am glad that most makers will bypass the list to get an instrument into the hands of a deserving player. That said, I think having a waiting list is great for a maker...it keeps him in business! If only great players bought his instruments, he wouldn't make enough money to survive, whether or not he is in it for the money (which I'm sure he isn't). I think it's important for the community to support very talented young people and to see to it that they have good instruments.

I have a number of instruments that I don't deserve, but they give me joy. Call me selfish, but I waited a LONG TIME for a wonderful marriage and a family, and in that LONG TIME, I fell in love with whistles and flutes. Through learning about them, I met people and made great friends. I do happen to come from a long line of collectors, and nobody who knows me is surprised that I found something to collect, too, but I do play them...just not as well as the pros (and many very skilled amateurs). I wish I had started as a kid, but I started in my twenties. I can sing with the best of 'em, but the brain-finger connection isn't as immediate as I would like. Still, I improve.

So...in theory, I think Peter's argument has a lot of validity. It doesn't make me feel angry or attacked in any way. But I love whistles and flutes, and since I can afford them, I will have them. I do have far fewer, though, than I used to.