Low D Whistles: Is One Enough?

[BillChin]

I think it is good for those who are so inclined and who aren't endangering their finances to collect musical instruments. Museums are wonderful places and I think a lot of the things in them have come from the collections of people. So if you can't decide what to do, then just take care of them properly. You are are the curator of your own museum. .

Not a point that applies to low whistles (which as far as i am concerned can be sold to collectors never to be heard again) but wouldn't you agree that musical instruments should be played by those who can play them well?

I know I have made this point a few times in the past but with the WIllie Clancy week just over I have seen it all in full operation again so:

In irish music there a tremendous problem has developed especially where concertinas and pipes are concerned. Too few good makers, and a big influx of wannabees insisting on having toprange isntrument, people who 'collect' nice instruments which bear no relation to their playing abilities just to have them and to noodle with them a bit while the 'real' market:
...
Nevertheless, there is a harmful side to this 'collecting' (to use the friendly term).

I disagree. In my opinion, the instruments should go to those who can pay for them, whether they have the talent or time or not. The long term solution is for the experienced makers to take on more apprentices and increase the supply of decent instruments and their own incomes by many multiples. I think it is great that some idle people with money to toss around are patronizing the good instrument makers. In my opinion, lowering the demand would only bring short term relief and make things worse in the long term.

Besides, who is going to judge? Are the makers going to sit and test potential customers? If things become extreme then the talented musicians will have to seek patrons like talented violin players do when they are deemed worthy of a top instrument.

[Wanderer]

No. I am not suggesting that the instrument makers participate. They are not victims, they benefit from higher demand and prices. I am not saying they benefit unfairly. I am definitely a capitalist. What I wondered is if any organizations like The Irish Concertina Foundation (I made that up for example) had considered paying current market price for instruments, same as everyone else, and then selling them to people who need instruments at anything from full price paid to a discounted price. In other words, I am asking whether there are any charitable organizations interested in this sort of thing. People would have to donate money to these organizations obviously. The money has to come from somewhere. It would be something like scholarships, except it would be musical instruments.

That is not the same as the ridiculous idea you propose, not seriously I realize, but clearly you did not understand what I was asking about. Or you chose not to. Absurd!

Sorry, Cynth...I wasn't dogging you specifically, really. This isn't the first time I've heard someone (not speaking of you) say something along the lines of "all these crap players with good instruments, making it hard for all of the good musicians (by *my* standard) to get one at a good price". Along with that goes the implied but unspoken snobbery of "I really wish all of these guys who can't play yet would just go home and stay out of my Irish music"

So, yes, I purposely distorted everything you said, in order to exaggerate what I percieve to be the silliness of the initial premise. Really had nothing to do with you really..your message just provided a good springboard for my own soapboxing Bill Chin pretty much said the same thing I did, but without all of the hyperbole.

[JessieK]

Bill, most of your post is very well said, but...

I think it is great that some idle people with money to toss around are patronizing the good instrument makers.

...having money and being an "idle person" are not mutually exclusive, nor is being idle a requirement for being interested in musical instruments.

[Cynth]

Ok, Wanderer. Thank you for that clarification.

I didn't take what Peter was saying to be snobbish. I think he does have a reason to lament the scarcity of instruments that have been traditional instruments where he lives and apparently pretty commonly available and the difficulty parents now have in buying them for their children who are coming along nicely.

My impression is that he wasn't talking about people who "can't play yet" but people that just plain aren't going to be playing---they don't practice----collecting instruments. And his remark was in response to my remark about it being good to be an instrument collector, to buy instruments and not intend to play them.

[Wanderer]

Ok, Wanderer. Thank you for that clarification.

I didn't take what Peter was saying to be snobbish. I think he does have a reason to lament the scarcity of instruments that have been traditional instruments where he lives and apparently pretty commonly available and the difficulty parents now have in buying them for their children who are coming along nicely.

My impression is that he wasn't talking about people who "can't play yet" but people that just plain aren't going to be playing---they don't practice----collecting instruments. And his remark was in response to my remark about it being good to be an instrument collector, to buy instruments and not intend to play them.

Yeah..but I think that whole idea of there being these reams of people buying "shelf instruments" is just a myth.

Really, who pays $1000-2000 for a set of pipes that they have no intention of playing? I'd grant that there may be a few..but I'd also wager that most folks who get on a waiting list and stuff really intend on playing. That's just common sense.

So, to me, what it appears is that there's a guy lamenting that there are all of these people that just aren't "good enough" buying all of the quality instruments and somehow "infecting" (which is the impression I get) traditional music venues. And that takes those instruments away from the people he thinks ARE good enough, and really, they should just stay home and not ruin these music things in Ireland too.

Really, when you boil down his post to the bare essentials, what he's said is: "You don't need a top range instrument. The irish children do. Oh, and my own kid too, even though I'm not from Ireland. Oh, and you're probably a wannabe anyway, and your playing is crap compared to the quality of instrument you want, so quit making it all cost so much for us, to boot".

That doesn't seem a bit snobbish?

[KDMARTINKY]

Terri-K wrote:

I think you are the only one that can really answer your question. Perhaps, you have

Yep I believe your right......I predict a toital clear out of shotgun cases very soon.......

[Jan Erik]

One low D is too many.

[Cynth]

Wanderer, I think we just aren't going to agree on this one.

I think Peter does think that it is important for Irish children who are advancing on an instrument to be able to keep on. But that doesn't seem too weird. There is a lot of encouragement in Ireland to not lose what remains of the culture by many organizations. It isn't just one individual.

I don't think he is saying that others wherever they live who are advancing on their instruments shouldn't also be able to keep on.

I think he is saying that it has become fashionable for those with money to have more instruments than they need or play, and it is fashionable for people with money to get the top level instruments right away when usually beginners start with a good beginner instrument. Then the person turns out not to want to practice, and there the instrument sits. I can see, if I was having trouble getting an instrument, being a little irritated by that, even if there was nothing I could do about it. I can't say to what extent this has contributed to the price inflation and shortage of instruments--I simply don't know.

But I really don't think he is knocking people from other places who are reasonably seriously practicing an instrument and who get a top quality instrument when they are advanced.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Wanderer]

Wanderer, I think we just aren't going to agree on this one.

I suppose so..Maybe it's just me. I can accept that, because that's certainly how he comes across to me.

Then again, I guess I've been through a bit of history on this one..
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=2838 (note, that's from nearly 30 months ago)

[WhistlinBob]

you kind folks have waaaaaaay to much time on your hands.
anyone with whistles they don't play should just send them to me I will see that they get the attention and love they need

[BillChin]

...
Yeah..but I think that whole idea of there being these reams of people buying "shelf instruments" is just a myth.

Really, who pays $1000-2000 for a set of pipes that they have no intention of playing? I'd grant that there may be a few..but I'd also wager that most folks who get on a waiting list and stuff really intend on playing. That's just common sense.
...

Wanderer, I have seen both sides of this. I met a luthier who has a waiting list for her expensive guitars. She was surprised that many of her customers were quite accomplished musicians. When she started selling guitars she thought her customers would mostly be people with more money than talent. I have another acquaintance with a professional quality grand piano at home. It probably costs $25,000 to $50,000 USD new. No one plays it. The kids took lessons for a year or three and now it sits idle. Another friend had a similar experience with a flute. Buying a very nice, moderately expensive instrument, only to have it sit after a short stint of lessons. I think this is more common than people would like to admit.

Especially if there is a long waiting list, intention and desire wax and wane, as do health and family circumstances. There have been plenty of posts here from people taking delivery of an instrument that was ordered many months or even years ago, and now needs to be sold because of these kind of changes.

Bill, most of your post is very well said, but...

I think it is great that some idle people with money to toss around are patronizing the good instrument makers.

...having money and being an "idle person" are not mutually exclusive, nor is being idle a requirement for being interested in musical instruments.

You are right Jessie. It reads better without the word “idle.”

[dfernandez77]

There seem to be three main types with many mixes:

• those that like to play their instruments
  those that like to buy instruments
  those that like to talk or write about them

Then some of us like to play whistles, buy whistles, write about whistles, and take photos of whistles.

Or maybe when I say "us" it's me and the mouse in my pocket.

[anniemcu]

Ok my Twins go to bed early.... and my wife is watching "Law and Order" ........ and the Dog is resting........ So I make my way to the sunroom and open up my shotgun cases (whistle cases) and just shake my head....then I satrted counting and figuring the money invested ($$$$.$$).

I have one Low D that gets the majority of playing time.....Chieftain Gold, but then you look in my cases and I have 5 more Low D's.

The question I am asking myself at this point is why do I have these extra Low D's?

So I am asking you, is one Low D enough?

Now that I have my flip reponse out of the way... actually... yes, one is enough. .. *IF* you really don't play the others much at all, and you feel like there won't be a bleeding, gaping hole left if they find new players to love them. That one, lovely, warm, accustomed, comfortable one... is enough.

Plus, the money you make from selling the unplayed ones can go to many important things... like more whistles... or shoes for the twins... kennel for the dog... or more whistles...

[Wombat]

Wanderer, I think we just aren't going to agree on this one.

I think Peter does think that it is important for Irish children who are advancing on an instrument to be able to keep on. But that doesn't seem too weird. There is a lot of encouragement in Ireland to not lose what remains of the culture by many organizations. It isn't just one individual.

This whole issue is a bit trumped up to me. Concertinas are a very special case. Whistles aren't.

There is a scarcity of high quality concertinas today because of a combination of factors. Only about 3 or 4 people make real concertinas these days, by which I mean concertinas fitted with concertina, as opposed to accordion, reeds. I know one of them personally and he only makes a handful each year. His waiting list would be about 5 years; fortunately I already have mine.

Historically, very few companies made high-end anglo concertinas and there were so few of them made over the 120 year period of initial popularity that collectors can just about tell you how many were made and who now has them. A lot of intermediate to low end instruments were made and sold but Peter isn't talking about them. Even these instruments are a bit pricey these days but you would do better to buy a new concertina by a maker of new instruments who uses accordeon reeds. The little you lose in tone is well compensated for in playability.

For a period from maybe the 40s or even earlier to the 70s it was more or less assumed that the concertina had had its day and that any residual interest could be channeled into accordeon. Curiously, Ireland and South Africa were outposts of interest but the concertina was nearly dead in Australian music. Since then the instrument has been in ever accelerating revival. This is a curious situation.

I frankly don't know why someone who can't play concertina would want three Jeffries in the first year. I have just the one high-end concertina and I don't yearn for others. If and when I buy others, I will have a specifically musical purpose in mind. Although my three row, 32 button, C/G instrument is technically chromatic, it plays a lot more easily in some keys than others. A B/F# or a C#/G# or something like that would bring a lot more keys under the fingers comfortably in the patterns I use for the common Irish keys. But, for song accompaniment, I can play adequately in other keys so I don't really need anything like that. But if I met people who wanted to play Irish music in Eb, I'd have to put my concertina aside.

Flute is very different. I don't play flute nearly as well as concertina but have 6, one borrowed. Two are bamboo flutes and one is a PVC. Obviously it makes sense to have a cheap PVC to be able to take anywhere. I also have a student model Boehm—no massive investment there. The borrowed flute is a Burns keyless and that's the one I mainly play. The other one is a Le Hart keyed which will eventually become my main flute but isn't yet. I'll never be able to handle keys if I don't practice on a keyed simple system flute some of the time. Experienced flute players tell me to play as wide a range of flutes as I can before making up my mind which is the eventual keeper. You can't do that without buying several unless you have very generous friends.

Whistle is different again but it shares with the flute the need to make trade-offs when you choose. Is back pressure worth the extra blowing effort is an issue you don't have to decide once and for all if you have two. Also, there simply isn't a shortage of quality instruments around.

[Hiro Ringo]

Good, now I learned the word 'scarcity'. A scarcity of words....