SF bans outdoor smoking.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:52 am

Cranberry wrote:
Was it by me or Sara (who has been MIA for a long time now...)? I remember something about the Nazis and George Bush and Sara getting upset and leaving because of it...

No. The incident I was referring to happened earlier, when I was fairly new to the Board.

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:50 am

Cranberry wrote: I've noticed that on the Internet, the "Nazi card" is played all the time, by people on all sides of the political debate. If you can link your ideological "opponent" to Hitler or the Nazis in any way, no matter how trivial, it's a very popular thing to do.

I hadn't started really noticing it until a few weeks ago, when I made a conscious effort to count how many times I saw it done (I lost count...hehe). If you make a mental note and try to remember each time somebody links Hitler and/or the Nazis to some modern idea or act, you'll see what I mean. It happens a lot.

Yep. That's <a href = "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" target = _blank>Godwin's law on nazi analogies</a>...

These comparisons can lead to very stupid conclusions:
Hitler was a vegeterian -> vegetarianism is nazism
Hitler loved children -> kids are nazis
Hitler loved dogs -> dog lovers are nazis
Hitler hated cats -> cat lovers are anti-nazis (I knew it

)
etc etc

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:57 am

Matt_Paris wrote:
Cranberry wrote: I've noticed that on the Internet, the "Nazi card" is played all the time, by people on all sides of the political debate. If you can link your ideological "opponent" to Hitler or the Nazis in any way, no matter how trivial, it's a very popular thing to do.

I hadn't started really noticing it until a few weeks ago, when I made a conscious effort to count how many times I saw it done (I lost count...hehe). If you make a mental note and try to remember each time somebody links Hitler and/or the Nazis to some modern idea or act, you'll see what I mean. It happens a lot.
Yep. That's <a href = "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" target = _blank>Godwin's law on nazi analogies</a>...

These comparisons can lead to very stupid conclusions:
Hitler was a vegeterian -> vegetarianism is nazism
Hitler loved children -> kids are nazis
Hitler loved dogs -> dog lovers are nazis
Hitler hated cats -> cat lovers are anti-nazis (I knew it )
etc etc

...shhhhhhhhh! There might be 'Topic Nazis" about...

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:39 am

Joseph E. Smith wrote:
Matt_Paris wrote:
Cranberry wrote: I've noticed that on the Internet, the "Nazi card" is played all the time, by people on all sides of the political debate. If you can link your ideological "opponent" to Hitler or the Nazis in any way, no matter how trivial, it's a very popular thing to do.

I hadn't started really noticing it until a few weeks ago, when I made a conscious effort to count how many times I saw it done (I lost count...hehe). If you make a mental note and try to remember each time somebody links Hitler and/or the Nazis to some modern idea or act, you'll see what I mean. It happens a lot.
Yep. That's <a href = "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law" target = _blank>Godwin's law on nazi analogies</a>...

These comparisons can lead to very stupid conclusions:
Hitler was a vegeterian -> vegetarianism is nazism
Hitler loved children -> kids are nazis
Hitler loved dogs -> dog lovers are nazis
Hitler hated cats -> cat lovers are anti-nazis (I knew it )
etc etc
...shhhhhhhhh! There might be 'Topic Nazis" about...

They need to be thrown into the goulash... goulog... whatever... that Russian prison thing not the soup.(I could never keep those two words straight)

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:46 am

I.D.10-t wrote: They need to be thrown into the goulash... goulog... whatever... that Russian prison thing not the soup.(I could never keep those two words straight)

What a ghoulish analogy.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:59 am

I didn't first bring up the Hitler thing, but seem to stand corrected on several items. Now I wonder if he was still anti-tobacco! Maybe it's a conservative myth.

jGilder · Post by **jGilder** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:35 pm

Walden wrote:
I.D.10-t wrote: They need to be thrown into the goulash... goulog... whatever... that Russian prison thing not the soup.(I could never keep those two words straight)
What a ghoulish analogy.

In America, it's a Gulatanamo.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:49 pm

I wonder if John McCain knows what he's talking about. His response to Tim Russert doesn't make much sense with everything I've heard about the parallels. Has anyone read this book he refers to?

MR. RUSSERT: Your Democratic colleague Dick Durbin of Illinois set off a firestorm when he compared the actions of Americans at Guantanamo to Nazis, Soviet Gulags and Pol Pot. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said that Senator Durbin should be censured by the Senate for those comments.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Dick Durbin should be required to read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago" and I think that he would--may have a better understanding that there's no comparison whatsoever.
-see full transcript on Meet the Press

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:58 pm

McCain doesn't know what he's talking about, or rather he does but doesn't appear to care. Early on in this war, he had useful things to say--drawn on his experience--about the virtues of NOT torturing prisoners.

As far as I can tell, he hasn't said anything like that in a year or two, even though the US is treating prisoners worse than it ever did, and the US's allies are treating prisoners worse than Mccain was treated.

Lorenzo wrote:I wonder if John McCain knows what he's talking about. His response to Tim Russert doesn't make much sense with everything I've heard about the parallels. Has anyone read this book he refers to?

MR. RUSSERT: Your Democratic colleague Dick Durbin of Illinois set off a firestorm when he compared the actions of Americans at Guantanamo to Nazis, Soviet Gulags and Pol Pot. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said that Senator Durbin should be censured by the Senate for those comments.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Dick Durbin should be required to read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago" and I think that he would--may have a better understanding that there's no comparison whatsoever.
-see full transcript on Meet the Press

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:31 pm

s1m0n wrote:McCain doesn't know what he's talking about, or rather he does but doesn't appear to care. Early on in this war, he had useful things to say--drawn on his experience--about the virtues of NOT torturing prisoners.

As far as I can tell, he hasn't said anything like that in a year or two, even though the US is treating prisoners worse than it ever did, and the US's allies are treating prisoners worse than Mccain was treated.

Several months ago, McCain came on NPR and said his reaction to the prisoner abuse was the same as any other American -- anger, sorrow, outrage, saddness, and a setback...putting a stain on the military.

Notice McCain doesn't offer any precise details, only innuendo and over-popular impressionism used to further an argument. I hate it when people talk in generalities, like "there's no comparison whatsoever," as if saying that makes it true. I suppose he may have offered proof in the book he suggested, but what's so hard about summarizing the report.

There's no doubt that putting a pair of ladies undies over a prisoners head is as reprehensible as what happened at Gulag, as innocent as it may smell on the surface. Still, I prefer precise details rather than insinuation.

"...if we do not study the history of the Gulag, some of what we know about mankind itself will be distorted.

"Prisoners' belts, buttons, garters, and items made of elastic were taken away from them.

"...'the whole population of the camp, including free workers, lives off flour. The only meal for prisoners is so-called `bread' made from flour and water, without meats or fats.' As a result, the inspector went on indignantly, there were high rates of illness, particularly scurvy...

"...temperatures regularly drop to -30 degrees or -40 degrees in the winter, where the sun does not shine for six months of the year, and where--as I can testify--in the summertime flies and mosquitoes travel in great dark clouds.

"Here occurred the terror famine of the 1930s, in which Stalin killed more Ukrainians than Hitler murdered Jews. Yet how many in the West remember it? After all, the killing was so--so boring, and ostensibly undramatic.

"Were Stalin's murders boring? Many people think so. Put differently, the crimes of Stalin do not inspire the same visceral reaction as do the crimes of Hitler."

jGilder · Post by **jGilder** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:19 pm

Lorenzo wrote:Notice McCain doesn't offer any precise details, only innuendo and over-popular impressionism used to further an argument. I hate it when people talk in generalities, like "there's no comparison whatsoever," as if saying that makes it true. I suppose he may have offered proof in the book he suggested, but what's so hard about summarizing the report.

Even though the camps that the Japanese were forced into didn't compare to the extreme that the German camps for Jews were, they were still called "Concentration Camps." What happened to the Japanese people wasn't as bad as what happened to the Jews -- but it was still wrong. Guantanamo is worse than the Japanese camps, but not as bad as the German or Soviet ones -- but it's still wrong. Just because the Soviets raised the bar so high (or low) doesn't mean that the term has no meaning if it refers to anything less. What's happening at Guantanamo fits the broad definition of Gulag. Unless you want to invent another term, that's the one that's currently available. The association with the word isn't comforting for supporters of the US military’s policy and tactics regarding detainees, and if they don't like it, they should demand that the military stop engaging in activity that's related to what goes on in a Gulag.

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:59 pm

gonzo914 wrote:
Hemp ought to grow there. Hemp grows just about anywhere. They could grow it and use it to make . . . . uh . . . ropes. Yeah . . . ropes. Great big ropes for sailing ships and stage rigging. We need more ropes!

As I understand it, (and I don't get my info from Woody Harrelson,) hemp is a durable crop, with many applications, including clothing and paper(apparently a lot more sustainable than lumber cutting.)

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:10 pm

emmline wrote:
gonzo914 wrote:
Hemp ought to grow there. Hemp grows just about anywhere. They could grow it and use it to make . . . . uh . . . ropes. Yeah . . . ropes. Great big ropes for sailing ships and stage rigging. We need more ropes!
As I understand it, (and I don't get my info from Woody Harrelson,) hemp is a durable crop, with many applications, including clothing and paper(apparently a lot more sustainable than lumber cutting.)

I started to buy some hemp shoes a few weeks ago, but they didn't have them in my size. They looked like really nice shoes.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:18 pm

I suppose he may have offered proof in the book he suggested, but what's so hard about summarizing the report.

Solzenitsyn's book was published thirty years ago. It has no direct relation to Iraq. It's an account of the Stalin-era soviet gulags before 1956.

You're quite correct; McCain is using argument by innuendo and hyperbole.

His argument, as I understand it, is that the Soviet political prisons were so bad that they can't even be called by the same name as american political prisons.

~~~

This is a variant of the republican cry "at least we're not as bad as Saddam!" or "..as the Taleban!"

They've graduated. Now the US, according to McCain, isn't as bad a Stalin.

I hope you're proud.

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:24 pm

emmline wrote:
gonzo914 wrote:
Hemp ought to grow there. Hemp grows just about anywhere. They could grow it and use it to make . . . . uh . . . ropes. Yeah . . . ropes. Great big ropes for sailing ships and stage rigging. We need more ropes!
As I understand it, (and I don't get my info from Woody Harrelson,) hemp is a durable crop, with many applications, including clothing and paper(apparently a lot more sustainable than lumber cutting.)

Hemp is a wonderful crop, and yes, it grows well on marginal land. But the government's official "religion" (and yes, it is a religion) is that anything even remotely related to marijuana is "evil" and cannot be grown...even if there's no way in h*ll you could get high from it. That's exactly where the government is going with tobacco too.

Redwolf