Nickel vs Brass

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:33 am

Could someone compare the difference in sound quality between these two mediums for me-- if possible?

TIA,
Andrea

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 8:18 am

Brass is supposed to have a softer tone, though in truth, I haven't noticed much difference between my brass and nickel Generations (all my whistles except for the Generation Eb are either brass or plastic). I suppose it would be more noticeable if one plays with other instrumentalists.

Nickel does wear better than brass, that's for sure...my brass whistles tend to look very "used" fairly quickly, but the nickel one (which is among my oldest) still looks quite new.

Redwolf

Tyghress · Post by **Tyghress** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:19 am

Andrea, I can't explain why I like nickel so much more than brass, but the fact is I do. The walton's I've played have been uniformly better in nickel than brass, and the only Gen D I ever liked was a nickel (See Steve? I really DID like it! wouldn't give away something I didn't think was a good play!)

Easier to keep clean (I don't like the worn brass at all, and have to keep after it with cleaner), I think a better sound, but only a blind test would prove THAT out.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 9:48 am

FWIW, the only real difference is that nickel-plated whistles have heavier walls, since they're just the brass whistle with a nickle plating... this affects the sound a bit by changing the kinds of overtones generated... the nickel walls hold tighter against the pressure, and are more reflective of sound, and the brass walls are a little less reflective and a little more likely to vibrate in sympathy. Of course, how much sympathetic vibration their can be with your fingers on the whistle is a bit of a question.

In general, wind instrument makers are of the 'the thinner it is, the better it sounds' theory, but that comes from history when you were talking about a 1/4 inch and an 1/8th inch wall ... not to mention larger instruments with much stronger vibrations (flutes, clarinets, brasses...) I think that when you get to the ultra-thin walls and soft vibrations of a modern whistle, that there is such a thing as too thin! I've noticed too that there's no massive movement to use modern machining and materials to make 'ultra-thin-wall' instruments, which is probably a sign that orchestral instruments have reach their optimal thinness as well and that the historical quest is dead.

Of course, irish trad musicians aren't looking for the maximally bright sound that was being sought in the previous century (uh, the 19th, that is, not the 20th...); if that was the sound people wanted for irish trad, you'd see a lot more boehm flutes and a lot less wooden flutes...

For that matter, it's not the sound quest of modern orchestras either, or there wouldn't be an interest in wooden-bodied boehm-fingering flutes! (Silver can be worked much thinner than even blackwood...)

I bet that didn't help at all, but it let me prove that I've been visiting the library.

--Chris

garycrosby · Post by **garycrosby** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:12 pm

On 2002-06-03 11:48, ChrisA wrote:
FWIW, the only real difference is that nickel-plated whistles have heavier walls, since they're just the brass whistle with a nickle plating... this affects the sound a bit by changing the kinds of overtones generated... the nickel walls hold tighter against the pressure, and are more reflective of sound, and the brass walls are a little less reflective and a little more likely to vibrate in sympathy. Of course, how much sympathetic vibration their can be with your fingers on the whistle is a bit of a question.

Although I heard the argument that nickle-plating increases the thickness of the tube wall which changes the overtones I just can't see it happening. My understanding is that electroplated nickel has a typical thickness of about 0.0005". Assuming both inside and outside of the whistle are plated that is an increase in wall thickness of only 0.0010". Personally I don't think this would change the tone to any audible degree. However, the nickel-plate certainly would change the characteristics of the surface though. By comparison, brass is certainly rougher than nickel and thus less reflective. I would think a rough surface would absorb more sound especially at higher frequencies than nickel thus giving nickel a "brighter sound" than brass.

I guess there is one other issue about nickel vs. brass that hasn't been raised in the thread. Because nickel offers a smoother surface than brass, nickel whistles tend to be slippery. This could be be a problem for some people especially when playing faster tunes.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 2:43 pm

The difference is less one of tone, than cosmetic appearance. New nickel looks nice, but so does polished brass.

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:12 pm

Thanks for all the help/advice everyone... still can't make up my Libra mind, but what else is new?

Andrea

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 8:48 pm

Try listening to some Clips and Snips. Since the instrument being played is listed you can get a feel for the difference in sound between brass, nickle, aluminum, etc.
Then you can decide which you prefer. I personally like the brass best although I do think the al and nickle seem to produce a more "pure" sound. I also like the patina of brass. Actually, if it sounds good, I don't care what it looks like, but it's gotta sound right.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 10:29 pm

On 2002-06-03 16:12, garycrosby wrote:

Although I heard the argument that nickle-plating increases the thickness of the tube wall which changes the overtones I just can't see it happening. My understanding is that electroplated nickel has a typical thickness of about 0.0005". Assuming both inside and outside of the whistle are plated that is an increase in wall thickness of only 0.0010". Personally I don't think this would change the tone to any audible degree. However, the nickel-plate certainly would change the characteristics of the surface though. By comparison, brass is certainly rougher than nickel and thus less reflective. I would think a rough surface would absorb more sound especially at higher frequencies than nickel thus giving nickel a "brighter sound" than brass.

I guess there is one other issue about nickel vs. brass that hasn't been raised in the thread. Because nickel offers a smoother surface than brass, nickel whistles tend to be slippery. This could be be a problem for some people especially when playing faster tunes.

I don't know about -all- whistles, that's the job of the Undisputed

, but Oak advertises itself as 'triple nickle plated' (meaning, essentially, 3 coats...) which by your estimates would be .0030 inches. More to the point, my oak is significantly heavier than any of my unplated whistles... maybe it's just thicker brass under the plating, I can't say for sure, or maybe it has thicker than normal plating, but, in any case...
by eyeball, since I don't have calipers, it looks like the wall of the whistle to hand (a Feadog, as it happens) is about 1/10th the diameter, which is known to be 1/4inch. One tenth of .250 in. is .0250 inch... .025 +.003 = .028 ... this may not be a huge increase in thickness, but it's a substantial percentage, even if my eyeball is off by a factor of 2.

So, I'd argue that the triple-nickle plating is a noticeable factor in the oak; other nickle-plated whistles will depend, I suppose, on whether they're plated on both sides and how many coats.

Another factor to consider is the relative density of nickle and brass... given the miniscule percentage of nickle but the perceptible difference in weight, I wonder if nickle isn't heavier than brass (but I don't have a table to hand...)

As for slipperiness if you regularly finger c-natural as '000 00X', it isn't a problem, and this is good practice anyway, since all whistles become slippery with sufficiently application of sweat on a hot day or guiness on a cool evening.

--Chris

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Mon Jun 03, 2002 10:39 pm

Only Generations I ever liked (and bought) have been the nickel, for what its worth. Brighter more reliable sound.

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 8:16 pm

There are several factors regarding nickel vs. brass.

1. Nickel is more expensive, it is likely that the builder will put more care to building because of the materials value. After all, no one wants to scrap out a nickel whistle.

2. Electroplated finishes make the bore extremely smooth inside. The plating fills in the rough spots.

3. Thickness of the fipple blade due to plating. Unless both fipples are plastic.

4. Thin material does have a ring to it. I don't know how much that average player can really tell anything about this. I made a brass whistle this week out of 0.028" wall brass and it's amazing how much more you can feel the vibration in the tube compared to copper whistles.

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Tue Jun 04, 2002 11:17 pm

I'll through in my two cents here. This is just first hand experience talking. When I first pick up most nickel instruments I can almost instantly get a good bright tone out of the thing. I have found them to be more forgiving than the brass. And nickel whistles generally take less air. A quality that I don't like. I have found brass to be much harder to get the desired tone and the note changes are not as smooth. But once you get used to the brass and improve your skills, I've found the brass whistles to sound much warmer and better overall than the nickel. So I would take most brass whistles over most whistles anyday. They are just much more tempermental than the nickel, and take some getting used to. I think it's no wonder most of the great traditional whistle players play brass gens. The brass whistle just have a more traditional sound to them. If you want a more playable whistle I would generally go with a nickle and if you want the trad. sound go for a brass. As a parting shot you can get an nickle oak or a brass feadog pretty cheap(Or a nickle gen vs. a brass gen). So if you're curious try both and give em a try. It will only set you back a few bucks. It's all a matter a personal preference.
Jack Murphy

gonzo914 · Post by **gonzo914** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:35 am

As a beginner who has yet to develop anything that's even close to breath control, I can only reiterate what MurphyStout said about nickel being "more forgiving" than the brass. I bought both a nickel and a brass Generation D, and it's much easier to overblow the brass. In fact, it doesn't take much at all on the lowest D to get it to start buzzing and sounding kind of like a band saw going through a piece of hardwood. The nickel Gen D was a little less likely to break the tone like that, but both still required more breath control than either Clarke D whistle. (OK, I admit it -- I read all your posts about WHOA and just decided to get a box of them right off the bat to get it out of the way early. Besides, shipping is cheaper that way, right? Right?)

I would also add that the nickel Gen D seemed heavier, so I weighted them both. The nickel was heavier, but only be 2 grams.

vaporlock · Post by **vaporlock** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:26 am

MurphyStout...
Where is Pacific House? I KNOW I've been through there or by there alot. I've searched the web and checked my maps and can't find it. It's driving me nuts!!

Reading this thread has spurred me into ordering a Generation D in both Nickel and Brass...just to see the difference.

Has anybody out there experimented with plating whistles themselves? Various materials....chrome, krome, black nickel, gold, etc. etc.?

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:01 pm

On 2002-06-05 06:35, gonzo914 wrote:

I would also add that the nickel Gen D seemed heavier, so I weighted them both. The nickel was heavier, but only be 2 grams.

How much was the total weight of a whistle...?

--Chris, who does not have a small scale...