Has debate become futile?

[Cynth]

Run, little girl, run!!!!

[jGilder]

Roll up Roll up...

[anniemcu]

Looking at the interminable back-and-forth between JGilder and IRTrad on this board has reminded me that I've been thinking lately that debate on political and social issues has beome futile. Maybe it's me, but there seems to be an increasing tendency for people to be entrenched in their political and and social beliefs. Does anyone ever change their views on any of these topics anymore?

My wife came to the conclusion 30 years ago that political and social debate is, ultimately, futile and I'm starting to think she is right. So many discussions seem to have a surface structure that relates to the actual issues, and a then a highly intractible deep structure at the level of, I don't know, core values or something.

Anyway, maybe it has always been thus, but I don't think so.

Would love to know your thoughts on this, if my expression of it is coherent enough for you to comment.

Dale

When someone presents actual facts for me to consider, I have been known to change my mind. When someone just throuw rude names and hackneyed accusations and assumptions around, I tend to write them right off.

So... Yes, there is hope....

[Walden]

I think the more discourse we have I see more and more the many sides of the main political camp. It is often, as far as I can tell, that we look mostly at the issues that are glaring to us. One person may consider himself a conservative and another a left-winger, but they may well have some issues they both feel strongly about in common, yet have sided up with one camp just with a mote in their eye.

In debate, the goal is not to convince the opponent, but to convince the listeners.

[anniemcu]

I think the more discourse we have I see more and more the many sides of the main political camp. It is often, as far as I can tell, that we look mostly at the issues that are glaring to us. One person may consider himself a conservative and another a left-winger, but they may well have some issues they both feel strongly about in common, yet have sided up with one camp just with a mote in their eye.

In debate, the goal is not to convince the opponent, but to convince the listeners.

I do totally agree that the ability to see(k) common ground is getting less and less prevalent. I don't care for either choosing, or being assigned a "camp". I am conservative in some respects and liberal in others, and outside the norm all together on more than a few. I still think that we have far more in common than in differences, and I choose to work for the common good rather than one party's chosen stance.

[Sunnywindo]

That bit reminded me of another bit: "resistance is futile"... good thing we aren't like the Borg on Star Trek... that would be blah.

Debate is great to a point... learn a lot about others that way and hear/read things you might not have otherwise, even if you don't change your mind, it's interesting all the same.

Of course, I think it does reach a point where it becomes more circular, predictable and empty than interesting... how many times can you go over a subject? It seems with politics and religion, the events may change but the underlying themes are always the same.

Guess I haven't helped things much... didn't intend to add to a disruption but ended up that way anyway without fully realizing it. Said some things I wish I hadn't as well as things I'd still say again... but words are like that. Likely offended some folks along the way for which I truly apologize. The weird thing is in actual life I'm more of the shy person sitting on the side hoping no one will see her because then she'd have to be social, something she'd like to do but which she feels as graceful as an elephant on ice skates at, who gets so nervous around people that she forgets things, like how to play a tune, and later agonizes beyond reason over even the smallest thing afterwards that might possibly have been seen in the slightest as offensive of hurtful or bad that she said/did (or failed to say/do), even if no normal person sees anything to it. (I'm sure there's some deep, psychological thing someone could come up with to explain that, some fancy named something... my hubby and I prefer the term looney actually. *sigh*)

Guess the good thing, for those whose toes I've so clumbsily bruised, is that I'm getting rather burnt out on all this forum stuff. Wonder if as time goes on, one by one we will all just get tired and move on, like a star reaching it's peak all crazy then supernova into nothing leaving only the whistle board, the cutie-pie thread and some general fluff floating around. Perhaps not, more likly new people will fill the gaps and it will go on as always except that eventually it will be unrecognisable to those here now in that so few of those that are here now will be there... which is rather a sad thought.

Would go off and actually post music stuff for a change, but there are so many much more knowledgable people that I wind up being just a reader and not a poster... would be like trying to share my view of Saturn through binoculars when nearly everyone else has varying sorts of telescopes.... don't have the means to get into a telescope much right now, despite it's appeal, though someday I hope.

Guess general fluff is nice sometimes....

Nite.


Sara (who shouldn't be posting in the middle of the night, too tired to think or spell well)

[missy]

Sara - since you and I tend to have a lot of thoughts alike (although it sounds like in "real life" I'm way more, ah, forcefull than you ) I mean this for not just for you - but also for those I really disagree with -

The bad thing about a forum is that feelings get hurt, and someone "packs up their toys and goes home". Whether we agree or disagree with that person, when they leave, we loose a perspective. And since we all live in a country / world that is full of people with different perspectives, loosing that person makes "our" forum a little bit lesser place.
Just as in "real life" we can't surround ourselves with people we agree with. We need to learn to listen to everyone, and while we might not agree with them, need to realize that their point of view has as much of a right to be as ours. We also don't need to try and change their view - but we need to respectfully present ours. And, for me, personnally - I find learning WHY a person thinks a certain way much more enlightening than WHAT they think.

Anyway - short of it - take a break if you need to, but come back. We need ALL posters.

[OutOfBreath]

...Sometimes the reason this information is being kept off the bus tour is because it contradicts the corporate news bus drivers’ itineraries and their bosses objectives...

And sometimes the reason the information is kept off the bus tour is because it's unsubstantiated "spin" from wackos with no credibility whatsoever. Anybody can publish anything they like on the Internet with little chance of even the most aggregious falsehoods being stopped - and in the rare case when an aggregious falsehood is forced off the Internet those who want to believe the falsehood then point to the "suppression" of the "story" as further evidence of conspiracy!

Thousands of so-called "journalists" on the Internet spin stories left, right and every which way around. Almost all of them, whether they be from the left or right, have a common tactic of taking one little nugget out of an AP story and then spinning an entire conspiracy around it - often ignoring contradictory information that was in the same AP feed!

There are wackos from both left and right but you have a long track record of citing those from the left whilst claiming credibility for them that they simply do not have. As a consequence, I have a heck of a time taking anything you say seriously, just as I have a hard time taking IRtrad seriously.

Furthermore, the stories you "break" here aren't being "kept off the bus tour" - about the time you "break" them I read about them in my local paper - the difference being that you usually cite some Internet wacko who is publishing one third of the story that was in my local paper. So who's running the "guided bus tour" here?

As I see it your "mistake," if you will, is in assuming that because something agrees with your preconceived notions the source must be credible. That isn't investigative and thoughtful and you aren't hoping others will stop riding the bus tour - you're just hoping they'll switch to the bus you're driving!

[Sunnywindo]

Sara - since you and I tend to have a lot of thoughts alike (although it sounds like in "real life" I'm way more, ah, forcefull than you ) I mean this for not just for you - but also for those I really disagree with -

The bad thing about a forum is that feelings get hurt, and someone "packs up their toys and goes home". Whether we agree or disagree with that person, when they leave, we loose a perspective. And since we all live in a country / world that is full of people with different perspectives, loosing that person makes "our" forum a little bit lesser place.
Just as in "real life" we can't surround ourselves with people we agree with. We need to learn to listen to everyone, and while we might not agree with them, need to realize that their point of view has as much of a right to be as ours. We also don't need to try and change their view - but we need to respectfully present ours. And, for me, personnally - I find learning WHY a person thinks a certain way much more enlightening than WHAT they think.

Anyway - short of it - take a break if you need to, but come back. We need ALL posters.

Geee... didn't mean to come off sounding like that (there are reasons why one shouldn't post when they are half asleep as I apparently have demonstated).

I agree with you Missy and didn't mean to indicate that I was leaving as in bye *poof*; more that I'm just tired. Still going to be here but just not as often in general and not as frequent in political/religous etc. threads.

One, because. as previously mentiond, a goodly portion of it does become pointlessly repetative after a while... how many times can one post *this is what I think regarding XYZ*? (Okay, a lot apparently. )

Two, life's demands have gotten more, um... demanding, making it hard to keep up with posts in a decent manner, complicated by the number of posts flying around here. Additionally, they are (IMO) one of the more demanding sorts of threads in the Pub to get involved with, at least if you want to keep up decently with what's being said... by nature it gets more involved/intense I think. Just burnt out trying to keep up with everything, some things have to give and as a result I just don't peek in here on a consistant, ongoing basis anymore. Life has a way of taking over.

Still like you all well enough though.... (well, most of you )

Sara

[jsluder]

Still like you all well enough though.... (well, most of you )

See sig quote below...

[Cathy Wilde]

People who are convinced that they are right can change their minds, but seldom as a result of a debate. Usually it's as a result of a personal experience or a self-realization.

Amen .... again (that's twice in one day I've agreed with brad -- eek!).

And you know, I don't think it's really ever been that different throughout history .... hence the use of force thru the ages; taking the effort to "change peoples' minds" on various things to the extreme.

I mean, look at the Crusades. Look at missionary zeal. Look at colonialism and the concept of "manifest destiny." <J, M, & J, don't a bunch of us feel bad about that now, I hope>

So hey, it's nothing new. We can just hear a lot more debate by people who now have a voice. But on the plus side ... no one can get stabbed or shot or overrun by an invading army in this pub. (thank you for that!)

[jGilder]

And sometimes the reason the information is kept off the bus tour is because it's unsubstantiated "spin" from wackos with no credibility whatsoever. Anybody can publish anything they like on the Internet with little chance of even the most aggregious falsehoods being stopped - and in the rare case when an aggregious falsehood is forced off the Internet those who want to believe the falsehood then point to the "suppression" of the "story" as further evidence of conspiracy!

Your use of the word "wacko" indicates your stance and degrades your credibility on commenting about this. It's obvious that you're willing to dismiss evidence simply because it doesn't agree with your conservative views rather than seriously considering it at all. Instead of examining facts you're happy to insult people who dare to question the conservative perspective.

A case in point is the Downing Street Memo. Here's something that hasn't been proven to be false, and in fact hasn't been denied by the British government. The minutes that were taken were not someone's opinion, but rather a documentation of what was said at the meeting. What it indicates is that the US government planned the war and fixed the evidence before they even called off the search for WMDs in Iraq. This is in-your-face deception and an inquiry should be initiated. Instead the conservatives in office and the corporate controlled media have done everything they can to downplay it. These are the same people who yelled and screamed until Clinton was impeached over a lie he told involving private consensual sexual affairs with an office intern.

If you insist on calling someone "wacko" it would be people that look away when the President lied to Congress and the American people to get us into a horrible war, but they'll get all worked up over a private, harmless sexual affair. To bring the Bus Tour metaphor in, it would be a case where the bus driver avoided the route that took you past the carnage resulting from Bush’s lie and instead drove right into the oval office to catch Bill and Monica playing hide the cigar.

[blackhawk]

Looking at the interminable back-and-forth between JGilder and IRTrad on this board has reminded me that I've been thinking lately that debate on political and social issues has become futile.

Definitely. How many times can the old arguments be trotted out again and again before they become mind-numbingly dull?

Maybe it's me, but there seems to be an increasing tendency for people to be entrenched in their political and and social beliefs. Does anyone ever change their views on any of these topics anymore?

Did anyone ever? Well, I suppose occasionally, but rarely because of arguments. More often because of life experiences.

My wife came to the conclusion 30 years ago that political and social debate is, ultimately, futile and I'm starting to think she is right.

Definitely

So many discussions seem to have a surface structure that relates to the actual issues, and a then a highly intractible deep structure at the level of, I don't know, core values or something.

Anyway, maybe it has always been thus, but I don't think so.

I think it has always been like that. It's just human nature. But when it's as endless as it has been on C&F, it gets to the point that I no longer have much interest in signing on. I already know what everyone is going to say. And the knee jerk response to what is going to be said. Which is why it's been a long time since I've even looked at this forum. And why it will be a long time before I look here again, if I ever do.

[blackhawk]

I'm thinking about going back to confining political stuff to the big political thread. I'm also REALLY considering a separate politics forum.

Maybe then C&F would become interesting again.

[izzarina]

Amen .... again

Can I get another big Amen? AMEN!!

Sorry.....my darling daughter has been listening to Green Day too much again. and that song is in my head since I read your response, Cathy. We can go back to discussing now.