Irish Music and neo-Nazis

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Wombat
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Post by Wombat »

ChrisA wrote:
Wombat wrote: That members of once persecuted minorities are themselves capable of persecuting? Surely not. Did anybody seriously doubt this? If they did, they must hold those minority groups to be vastly morally superior to mainstream America which has a record of hundreds of years of persecution. So why did this superiority go unrecognised for so long? Get real. After hundreds of years of systemic injustice, of course there is going to be some payback.
Actually, the idea that minorities are incapable of persecuting is -exactly- what I was taught in my college's diversity appreciation class or whatever it was actually called. The theory is that because only the majority has the power, only the majority can -persecute- or -oppress-. It is also part of the theory that it is natural for minorities to be angry at the majority, to want to have nothing to do with the majority (hence race-exclusive dorms; well, black-exclusive dorm. I was not aware of a latino dorm or an asian dorm.) This anger and self-segregation we needed to accept as a natural part of the 'healing process'.

In other words, we were taught that they cannot oppress or persecute, and what may -look- like reverse-racism is actually a part of the healing process. We were not taught that minorities were superior, so much as we were taught that it's owed to the minorities to defer to them in myriad ways as part of their healing process.

I felt then, and still feel, that if college is not the time when people of every background mix together equally, cooperating and competing academically and in sports, and as a result, learning from and about each other, than when is such a thing ever going to happen?
In particular, it seems to me a disservice to the minorities to let them self-segregate, even if they think they want it. If they don't learn to live and work alongside their white fellow students in college, they will find it very hard to get decent employment in the clearly white-dominated corporate world.
As you all know, I'm never speechless but I sure am astonished. This throws just about everything seriously out of focus for me. I can see why people are sick of multiculturalism if this is what it amounts to in theory. But I'm even more mystified than I was before. Let me elaboratte a bit; I hope some of you can explain what's going on here.

What discipline would have been appealed to to justify this theory? Sociology? Political Theory? Communication Studies? The only theory I know of which seems to go with these views is that embraced by the lunatic fringe of the Post-Colonial studies push. The view that only white Europeans can persecute seems to be based on a misreading of Edward Said's book Orientalism. I won't go into it here but Said despaired of radically different cultures ever being able to represent each other fairly. His targets were European scholars because the Orientalist field was in fact developed and populated by Europeans. Nothing in his book licensed the view that they alone are capable of wilfully misunderstanding other cultures to further colonial ambitions.

The post-colonialists I'm thinking of are not liberals. They tend to be the embittered renegades from the hard-line marxist corner of academia looking for a temperamentally attractive ideology to pursue that might further their careers after the fall of the societ union. They are as far from liberals, temperamentally and ideologically, as it is possible to get—in the most extreme cases, every bit as far as neo-nazis. Now my question. Since multiculturalism is obviously a liberal idea, how did American liberals allow their social agenda to be highjacked by the lunatic fringe of the far left? It just doesn't compute as far as I can see.

I said earlier that their is no route from systemic injustice to justice that doesn't involve some degree of reverse discrimination. (If I thought there were I'd welcome it, but nobody has come up with a practical proposal here.) I didn't say, although I believe, that I think that only very mild forms of RD are justified but I did hint that it had to be a strictly transitional feature of a program. I certainly don't think that voluntary isolation of members of minority groups has any role to play in this at all. Furthermore, the aim would always be the breaking down of barriers and never the erection of new ones. That is how multiculturalism is understood in Australia. Parties and festivals where people get together and celebrate diversity are welcomed. Riots at soccer matches between Serbian and Croatian backed teams are regarded as quite unacceptable. Migrants to Australia are expected and encouraged to bring their cuisine, music and literature but to check their ethnic hatreds at the airport.
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dapple
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Post by dapple »

In other words, we were taught that they cannot oppress or persecute, and what may -look- like reverse-racism is actually a part of the healing process. We were not taught that minorities were superior, so much as we were taught that it's owed to the minorities to defer to them in myriad ways as part of their healing process.
At the university I attended, each year, to raise funds for charity, the sororities would coordinate an “auction” of members of the fraternities. The event was officially approved by the university so that a successful bidder’s money would be donated to some worthy charity and the “auctioned” fraternity member would spend the day with the winning bidder, carrying her books, getting her lunch, massaging her feet, or whatever other harmless chores would be required. One year two black students complained that the charity event made them think of a slave auction. In response to the two students’ complaint, the university banned the event and sanctioned the fraternities but not the sororities. The university decided that they must also take action against the individual members of the fraternities except that, quandary of quandaries, some of the fraternity members were black. What is a university in a politically-correct, multicultural era to do with such a situation? The university placed the white members of the fraternity on probation but did nothing to the black members because the university declared them to be “white influenced” and, therefore, not responsible for their actions. That was only one incident. The university was generally considered to be relatively conservative.
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dubhlinn
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Post by dubhlinn »

That's scary...very scary. :boggle: :boggle:

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dapple
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Post by dapple »

Since multiculturalism is obviously a liberal idea, how did American liberals allow their social agenda to be highjacked by the lunatic fringe of the far left?
An accepted theory and practice of leading American Liberals is what they refer to as multiculturalism and what American Conservatives disparagingly call political correctness. As you see on this board the fringe elements on both sides are more energized and scream louder than those in the center. They are also more likely to vote. Democrats (Liberals) pander to the fringe Liberals for their votes by telling them that Republicans (conservatives) – labeled by the Liberals as the party of straight, white, men – want to hurt them and keep them from realizing their dreams.

Democrats tell blacks, “White people are against you and working to keep you down; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell women, “Men are against you and trying to hold you back; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell gays, “Straight people are against you, think you an abomination, and don’t want you to exist; vote for us and we will protect you from them”;

Etc.

Having worked to break up the electorate into distinct groups and pit those groups against each other, Democrats then deliver to the energized and loud elements of their constituency their protection from Republicans in the form of multiculturalism/political correctness. In this way, in my opinion, Democrats are fragmenting American society simply for votes to gain political power.
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Post by Whistling Pops »

dapple wrote:
Since multiculturalism is obviously a liberal idea, how did American liberals allow their social agenda to be highjacked by the lunatic fringe of the far left?
An accepted theory and practice of leading American Liberals is what they refer to as multiculturalism and what American Conservatives disparagingly call political correctness. As you see on this board the fringe elements on both sides are more energized and scream louder than those in the center. They are also more likely to vote. Democrats (Liberals) pander to the fringe Liberals for their votes by telling them that Republicans (conservatives) – labeled by the Liberals as the party of straight, white, men – want to hurt them and keep them from realizing their dreams.

Democrats tell blacks, “White people are against you and working to keep you down; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell women, “Men are against you and trying to hold you back; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell gays, “Straight people are against you, think you an abomination, and don’t want you to exist; vote for us and we will protect you from them”;

Etc.

Having worked to break up the electorate into distinct groups and pit those groups against each other, Democrats then deliver to the energized and loud elements of their constituency their protection from Republicans in the form of multiculturalism/political correctness. In this way, in my opinion, Democrats are fragmenting American society simply for votes to gain political power.

In all fairness, the view you have presented is pretty one-sided. I will present another view which also may be one-sided, just to balance things out. The messages you credit to Democrats are actually being sent to the various groups by conservative Republicans. If you just listen to Fox News or any of the many televangalists programs you will hear these messages loud and clear. A well-know TV preacher made the statement that "liberals always lie". Conservatives would have a fit if that had been said about them.Political rhetoric has gotten vicious in this country, so much so that we will probably never again be a UNITED nation. I remember when Michael Dukakus(can't remember how to spell his name) ran for president he was savagely attacked by Republicans. He tried to be a nice guy anyway but the negative tactics worked for his opponents. Since then every person that runs on a Democratic ticket is savagely attacked by those on the right. Clinton is a prime example. But the attacks don't stop with the candidates. Those on the political right attack anyone they consider liberal or a Democrat. There are at least a half dozen people on the forum that launch attacks on everyone they consider liberal. I will surely be attacked by these but I will not argue with them. I am saying what I believe is correct and I will let them hammer away at me without responding. I have heard people in my home town say several times that a person cannot be a Democrat and also be a Christian. People with such a hard attitude don't leave much room for compromise. You say the Democrats have divided the country by appealing to various groups. I say the Republicans have divided the country by launching attacks on group after group, simply because they can use the attacks to make political gains. Unfortunately, a lot of people love to hate others. The attacks have worked to the political advantage of Republicans but it has divided the country. Liberals have no real voice in this country anymore. The entire federal government is controlled by people on the far right. I do understand that conservatives have some legitimate complaints. I realize that some parts of the country have problems that others may not be aware of ,and therefore not sensitive to. I just wish that conservatives would be willing to compromise and tolerate the views of others. I know that some on the far left are just as intolerant and also need to be more open-minded. :)
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cowtime
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Post by cowtime »

I started a post here, but on second thought, I'll let it go.........

seems like this might need to move to the Political thread :-?
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dapple
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Post by dapple »

Liberals have no real voice in this country anymore. The entire federal government is controlled by people on the far right.
That will change, Whistling Pops.
~ David
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jGilder
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Post by jGilder »

Dapple wrote:Democrats tell blacks, “White people are against you and working to keep you down; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell women, “Men are against you and trying to hold you back; vote for us, and we will protect you from them”;

They tell gays, “Straight people are against you, think you an abomination, and don’t want you to exist; vote for us and we will protect you from them”;

Etc.
I have a different perspective, of course. I believe that the Republican leadership recognizes the disadvantage they have in acquiring enough votes to win on account of being the representative of a small minority of extremely wealthy Americans and corporations. If they were completely honest about whom they represent and what policies they would put forward -- they would hardly get enough votes. For this reason they attach themselves to things like the religious right and their causes and also try to convince Americans at large that they are representing their interests – even though they clearly are not. When they come to power everything they do actually lowers the standard of living for the very people they claimed to be the advocating. The rich get richer, the poor poorer, and corporate wars are waged sending young Americans to their graves.

It was interesting to see how when Clinton came to power that he actually fulfilled most of the promises the Republicans had made during the Reagan/Bush era. The deficit was diminished, jobs were created, the stock market was soaring etc. It seemed like the Democrats made better Republicans than the Republicans.

This is a major clue into the deception that the Republicans engage in. When the Fairness Doctrine was abolished by the Reagan White House it set the stage for some of the most dishonest presidential campaigns every to be witnessed. It is LEGAL to lie in political ads. You won't be held accountable for your claims, and corporate media was no longer under any official obligation to present both sides.

Let the games begin. This is American politics at their worst.
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Post by s1m0n »

The science says that negative ads are more appealing to republican voters than to democrats. They work better, in other words, when directed at a democrat in order to appeal to a republican than the reverse. Democratic voters are more likely to find attack ads unreasonable and end up with a negative opinion of both sides.

Given this, I find the right wing insistance that THEY are the ones being demonised unconvincing.
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

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jGilder
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Post by jGilder »

cowtime wrote:I started a post here, but on second thought, I'll let it go.........

seems like this might need to move to the Political thread :-?
Me thinks this IS a political thread. Image
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missy
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Post by missy »

Believe it or not - Dapple AND Whistling pops are BOTH correct - and that is what is wrong with politics in this country!!! Neither the Republicans OR the Democrats "speak" for the middle majority of the country - one group is way ---------> this way, the other group is way <---------- that way. Most of us don't vote FOR a person or platform, we vote AGAINST the other guy.

As to simon's statement:
"The science says that negative ads are more appealing to republican voters than to democrats. They work better, in other words, when directed at a democrat in order to appeal to a republican than the reverse. Democratic voters are more likely to find attack ads unreasonable and end up with a negative opinion of both sides."

We just had a local primary that differed with your theory. Rob Portman (who has been a fantastic Representative, as far as keeping in touch with constituency, etc - and I don't even live in the district he represents) has been appointed to a new office by Mr. Bush. So his seat is up for special election. This seat has been held by a Republican for as long as I can recall. There were 5 Republicans and 3 Democrats in the primary (the "real" special election will be in August). One of the Republican candidates has HUGE name recognition here, has been on City Council, is currently on the county commissioners, and had a war chest higher than the other four combined. He started the negative adds - and focused on the other candidate that had held the seat many years ago, who also had name recognition. That candidate held off for a while, but the last week of the campaign started negative adds, too.

They both lost. The first mentioned candidate came it absolutely, totally, last. The frontrunner was probably the least known, lowest name recognized, of any of the five candidates. She spent probably second last on the campaign. I find it really funny.
Missy

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