IRISH TRADITIONAL

rh · Post by rh » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:47 pm

Wormdiet wrote:Well, in addition to jigs & reels, there are

Airs
Waltzes
Polkas
Slides
Hornpipes
"Scottisches"
Slip jigs
and the occasional March.

don't forget the barndances/germans...

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:58 pm

rh wrote:
Wormdiet wrote:Well, in addition to jigs & reels, there are

Airs
Waltzes
Polkas
Slides
Hornpipes
"Scottisches"
Slip jigs
and the occasional March.
don't forget the barndances and germans...

What is a German?

rh · Post by rh » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:02 pm

Cranberry wrote:What is a German?

a "German" AFAIK is the name used in Donegal for a barndance... that's why i made the edit above -- they're the same kind of tune just called by a different name.

Some of my favorite tunes to play are barndances (or Germans), many are quite lovely.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:14 pm

rh wrote:
Cranberry wrote:What is a German?
a "German" AFAIK is the name used in Donegal for a barndance... that's why i made the edit above -- they're the same kind of tune just called by a different name.

Some of my favorite tunes to play are barndances (or Germans), many are quite lovely.

Oh. That makes sense...I don't think I've ever heard them called that before.

rh · Post by rh » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:29 pm

the term "German" i think is short for "German schottische" so in some references the names barndance and the schottische seem interchangeable while in others they are distinct tune types... it gets complicated...

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/d ... 9/comments

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:52 pm

"German schottische"

Nobody ever accused us tradheads of making sense. . .

DO they serve jumbo shrimp at these dances??

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:14 am

Tony McGinley wrote:There are perhaps two definitions of what Traditional Irish Music is, as I understand it. One deals with the songs and music which have been handed down from generation to generation - the other is more an understanding of the "style" of playing or singing. In other words there are the brand new musical pieces and songs which bear the hallmarks of traditional forms and styles of singing and playing, and there are the historical pieces handed down. As my friend Tomás Ó Caninn says in his book on the subject, certain pieces of music are deemed traditional because "they sound right"

As to the question of what style of music represents the main body of Traditional Irish - some of the best early collections are very rich in songs and slow airs. There is also a rich heritage of "Sean Nós Singing" old style singing which is mainly slower tunes. Some of the dance tunes are also known is slower song form.

Much of what is now considered Traditional comes from the Blind Harpers Era, the music of O'Carolan, Ruari Dáll Ó Cathain and others. This music is very close to the Classical Italian music of the time Corelli etc. but has that unique Irishness all the same. The blind harpers were the nearest Ireland got at the time to classical music, and yet these are the very essence of traditional now.

So there is a broad sweep of what is considered Traditional Irish. My personal preference leans towards the songs and slow airs and O'Carolan etc. For me they contain more of the "spirit". That is not to say I dont enjoy the dance music - I really do.

The important thing is what do you enjoy and relate to - go with that.

I enjoyed this post. Thank you for this beautifully expressed summary - both factual and subjective. My kind well wishes to you.

Tony McGinley · Post by **Tony McGinley** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:20 am

Why thank you TASASIGA for you kind words!!! - I spent most of my life distanced from Irish music and culture due to a strong prejudice formed in me by having it rammed down my throat by an over-zealous Christian Brothers and a born-again "Gaelgori" culture.

It is only in very recent years - that I am starting to appreciate my Irish heritage and getting to love the music, language and literature. I took up low-whistle and bodhrán only last year, and I am really getting the greatest satisfaction from learning.

Go raibh maith agat
Slán agus Beannacht Dé ort

Tony McGinley · Post by **Tony McGinley** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:37 am

OOps

got the name wrong didn't I - Talasiga - sorry

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:14 am

Les, there is a discussion going on this thread that might be of interest to you:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

I just went and checked the link rh gave and it was sure helpful to me. More so than the thread I just gave.

Les Cruttenden · Post by **Les Cruttenden** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:30 pm

Well. in the8 or so months I have been a member of C&F I have never had so many responses to an anything I have submitted to the board...and what a response...so very helpful all round...I obviously have a load of research to do, some other sights to check out and a very good analysis to work through...thanks so much...time to get busy. Les.

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:31 pm

Hi Tony. I too was educated by the Irish Christian Butchers. By some miracle it didn't put me off ITM, which I always loved. But I left Ireland at the age of 23 and it wasn't a day too soon. My attitude has softened a bit since then. Celtophiles can't understand.

Qustion for rh:
There's a tune on the BBC virtual session that's called "Slow Barn Dance". Does this tune fit into the category of Donegal "German".

Tony McGinley · Post by **Tony McGinley** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:48 pm

[quote="Whitmores75087"]Hi Tony. I too was educated by the Irish Christian Butchers. By some miracle it didn't put me off ITM, which I always loved. But I left Ireland at the age of 23 and it wasn't a day too soon. My attitude has softened a bit since then. Celtophiles can't understand.

Yep - It was a very different time. It could be said that the Irish nation nearly did more to destroy the language and music than the British Empire ever did. And this through a bloody minded fundametalism. Thankfully I have been able to walk sufficiently back from those influences to now be able to seperate the issues, and to gain a love for my heritage and my music. You still meet the over zealous types and there is still unfair language discrimination in Ireland. But Ireland is gaining a new confidence, and with it a new connection with it's heritage.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:20 pm

Tony McGinley wrote:
Whitmores75087 wrote:Hi Tony. I too was educated by the Irish Christian Butchers. By some miracle it didn't put me off ITM, which I always loved. But I left Ireland at the age of 23 and it wasn't a day too soon. My attitude has softened a bit since then. Celtophiles can't understand.

Yep - It was a very different time. It could be said that the Irish nation nearly did more to destroy the language and music than the British Empire ever did. And this through a bloody minded fundametalism. Thankfully I have been able to walk sufficiently back from those influences to now be able to seperate the issues, and to gain a love for my heritage and my music. You still meet the over zealous types and there is still unfair language discrimination in Ireland. But Ireland is gaining a new confidence, and with it a new connection with it's heritage.

Isn't it about time someone made the Marist Brothers share some of the blame?

I escaped both influences but my cousins didn't. Actually, in Australia the attitudes of which you speak were strong but not quite as damaging I think.

rh · Post by rh » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:37 pm

Whitmores75087 wrote: Qustion for rh:
There's a tune on the BBC virtual session that's called "Slow Barn Dance". Does this tune fit into the category of Donegal "German".

oh, i'm certainly no authority on ITM and know very little about Donegal music specifically. Most of the barndances i have come from listening to East Clare players.

i have heard that BBC Virtual Session barndance before -- not sure where (Kevin Burke? Martin Hayes?). On the BBC the rendition sounds kind of East-Clare-ish to me, laid back, lonesome, slow. i'd be willing to say that in Donegal the tune would be considered a German, since the Germans i've heard (from Altan mostly) are the same as what are called barndances on other recordings. But in Donegal the renditions have some differences in tempo, swing, etc.

a couple of quick clips of Germans played by Altan can be found here
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/a ... 30,00.html
http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/store/a ... 85,00.html
just click on the tracks titled "Germans".

BTW in going through some CDs to find out more on this topic, i noted that Mary Macnamara ascribes a Donegal origin to a well known barndance usually named for the fiddler Pearl O'Shaughnessey. Might this mean that a number of other barndances commonly played in Clare originated as Donegal "Germans"? i wonder.

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