Flute-6hole or 8hole?

[scottie]

Can anyone tell me what the two extra holes(other than the basic 6 holes) that make up an eight hole flute are for? Are these just two additional lower notes or are these just the other two notes of a basic eight note scale?
Thanks for any info,
scottie

[Denny]

purely aerodynamic

the extra holes, that is!

[glinjack]

Can anyone tell me what the two extra holes(other than the basic 6 holes) that make up an eight hole flute are for? Are these just two additional lower notes or are these just the other two notes of a basic eight note scale?
Thanks for any info,
scottie

Ive been thinking seriously about extra holes on the flute, where i could do treble's with my pinkies and rolls with my thumbs,

I guess the extra 2 holes you are asking about are the C and C# on most new flutes for keys to be fitted in the future,

[talasiga]

Can anyone tell me what the two extra holes(other than the basic 6 holes) that make up an eight hole flute are for? Are these just two additional lower notes or are these just the other two notes of a basic eight note scale?
Thanks for any info,
scottie

1. They are stabilising vents and yes, covering one or both them gives lower notes.
2. No, there is no basic eight note scale. The basic scale is seven notes.

Now if you sticky tape the first "unreachable" hole on a D flute you will get the lower C# and sticky tape both you will get the lower C. This is of little practical value to players of Irish music because by blocking one or both of these vents in this way you are cancelling the D.

I myself block one of these holes for certain "exotic" pieces in which the D note does not figure in the scale.

[Lambchop]

2. No, there is no basic eight note scale. The basic scale is seven notes.

My goodness, he's right! I just counted on my fingers! The apparent 8th one is the beginning of the next octave!

Hmmm, octave. Eight. Wait, let's try this again . . .



(Missed you, Tal. Where you been?)

[I.D.10-t]

A while back I asked a similar question and Terry McGee responded

If you're copying an old 8-key flute, you either copy the extension with the C# and C keys, replace the C# and C keys with plain vents, or do away with the extra wood (and air) and reinvent the Short D foot such as the old English 4-keys and the French 5-keys had.

Terry

[Doug_Tipple]

I have read that some players believe that the 8-hole flutes are more stable in the second octave, however, I haven't noticed this. Also, the 8-hole flutes look more like tradional Irish flutes to some and may feel more balanced in the hands, depending on the over-all design of the flute.

Personally, I prefer the shorter and lighter 6-hole flutes. I have tested similar flutes (both 6-hole and 8-hole) with a digital sound meter, and I couldn't detect any measurable difference in the volume level of the flutes. My conclusion is that there isn't any difference in playabity in similar 6-hole or 8-hole flutes.

[fearfaoin]

Interesting. The explanation I've heard was that the holes made the bell tone ("D" on a D flute) sound
more like the other notes on the flute. Since the hole that is made by the bore is so much larger than
any of the fingerholes, the belltone of a 6-hole flutes would be intonated a bit different than the belltone
of a 8-hole...

[talasiga]

.........
Hmmm, octave. Eight. Wait, let's try this again . . .



(Missed you, Tal. Where you been?)

Don't ask me - its your western music noumena!
An octave gives you seven intervals


(I have been moving house and now live quite well away from the big smoke. Today, before breakfast, I saw mummy and baby dolphin in the estuary and saw some others having a session in the surf!)

[Paul Thomas]

Don't ask me - its your western music noumena!
An octave gives you seven intervals

Semantic quibbles aside, I think any theorist (Schenkerianor otherwise) would tell you that the (traditional western diatonic) scale is completed, in common practice and in theoretical demonstration, by sounding the "8th note", i.e., the tonic again, having begun counting that pitch space with the 1st tonic. Wait for it...wait for it....[solfege]DO![/solfege]

Divide a space with seven lines & you get 8 parts, ergo, octave, describes not the scale but the intervallic space (here's the important part: in theory, we begin with the unison - two notes 0 semitones apart, kindof a quibble itself, like computer science folks starting counting at zero, but very useful nonetheless).

Myself I think that (even though it's plagued by the scientistic problems of any art that applies science to itself) atonal theory, borrowing some techniques of set theory & describing pitches & octaves as classes & in numerical terms, is really useful for understanding more abstract relationships between pitch, scale, and tonality.

For a western noumenon that *really* has 8 notes to the scale, try octatonic (aka "diminished" scales, but that sounds so judgemental--I prefer "differently partitioned intervalic tonal collection"). More fun that a barrel of monkeys, and you're never more than a 1/2 step away from where you want to be.

If that still feels too constraining, try Harry. How do you say "thing divided into 43 parts" in a classical language?

Heck, we don' need no stinkin' noumena, we need new neumes! Lots of 'em! Anyone care to coin some new neumes? (I guess in that case they'd be new numismatic neumes noumena). Heck, let's make it an open source project, & notate our music with Gneums. Atonal notation? Neumerical.

[/holding forth]
Representative of the Audience: "hats back on gentlemen, an idiot"
("and they all moved away from me on the Group W bench")

[talasiga]

........ like computer science folks starting counting at zero, but very useful nonetheless).
.........

the West had no zero in their numeral sequence. They rightly knew that zero is not a number and then went on to wrongly conclude that, therefore, it was not relevant for numerical computations.

It wasn't until the Christian Crusaders' picked up some good things and ideas (like underwear) from the Middle East did they discover the utility of the zero in numerical computations, a utility first recognised by the ancient seers of India who devised the decimal systen of numeration.

This may be somewhat analogous to the extra, unreachable tone holes on a flute which may not be playable but may have unforeseen positive implications. Of course, people like Doug Tipple generally know their stuff and I think Terry McGee would agree with him but - hey! whats wrong with stretching a tenuous analogy if it serves to BRING US BACK to the topic?

[Paul Thomas]

<...> whats wrong with stretching a tenuous analogy if it serves to BRING US BACK to the topic?

Hoo boy - that was quite a feat! My hat is off to you, sir.

I've played both Rudall and Pratten copies (or if you prefer, flutes based upon those general accoustical types) with and without long foot joints (i.e., those with vestigial openings for C and C# keys), and while many times I've noted a difference, I can't say that I've detected a consistent difference. So I'll fall back on the standard fallback position: it depends on the particular flute.

Scotty if the reason for your question bears on choosing a flute, I'd say go with the maker's advice, as they'll be most familiar with how it will affect their particular designs.

(The west got underwear from the Ottoman Empire? Who knew! Talasiga: I would love to have more information on zero/decimal originating in India, if you know of a source of more information on that, send a link/book reference please.)

[talasiga]

......Talasiga: I would love to have more information on zero/decimal originating in India, if you know of a source of more information on that, send a link/book reference please.)

here is one of very mani mani sites with many pranaams to GoogleJi!

[crystalflute]

Hmmm, octave. Eight. Wait, let's try this again . . .



(Missed you, Tal. Where you been?)

Octave is 8 notes. The last note is the repeat of the first, and though it starts the next octave, it is also considered the last note of the previous octave. Circular pattern of music, I suppose.

[talasiga]

my dear crystal flute,
Sweetie, let's get a few things straight:
1. You have ascribed a quote to me in your last post when, in fact, I never said it.
2. Your point has already been covered in an earlier post in this very topic.
NB