I'm sick with despair and rage..what next!
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cowtime
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I wish I could say I am suprised at this happening, but I can't. I will say prayers for you. The stress of this news must be overwhelming.
You've gotten some great advice here. I can't add a thing, except remember that there are exceptions to every rule . For example: a vet I worked for use to play in DDT as a kid. His Dad used it as an insectiside and he litterally played in barrells of the stuff. He's almost 60 now and has always been healthy.
You've gotten some great advice here. I can't add a thing, except remember that there are exceptions to every rule . For example: a vet I worked for use to play in DDT as a kid. His Dad used it as an insectiside and he litterally played in barrells of the stuff. He's almost 60 now and has always been healthy.
"Let low-country intruder approach a cove
And eyes as gray as icicle fangs measure stranger
For size, honesty, and intent."
John Foster West
And eyes as gray as icicle fangs measure stranger
For size, honesty, and intent."
John Foster West
Charlene wrote:I second that - but probably NOT the local VA Hospital!
Charlene? Mark, it is scary and I'm saddened that you find yourself in this position. I would feel betrayed and vulnerable, and as though I had lost control of my life. I will keep you and your friends in my thoughts and prayers.
There are a number of conditions which have been associated with exposure to dioxin-containing compounds, as well as some which have not. As someone already pointed out, we all get conditions as we age. It's sometimes difficult to tell what we might have just gotten anyway. Not that it makes it any less painful for you now.
Exposure to dioxin-containing compounds does not mean that you will get a disease, but only that your chance of getting the disease may be a little higher. As Cynth pointed out, it's important for your own peace of mind to get into a regular program of care so that you don't have to worry that you already have a condition and so that you can get early treatment if you do have one.
This is particularly important for adult-onset diabetes and prostate cancer, both of which have been associated with Agent Orange. The prostate cancer appears earlier than it would normally, even in men in their early 50s (several of my coworkers have it
). The US Department of Veterans Affairs provides exams and treatment for those exposed to Agent Orange (Vietnam era vets, including some stationed in Korea). As Vietnam-era veterans are ageing, this is becoming a major outreach program within the VA. It is to a veteran's advantage to seek care for this from the VA because the conditions may be compensable, but more importantly because VA doctors know what to look for and anticipate that you may have one of these conditions. Non-VA physicians do not know what conditions are associated or what screening you need.
I'm not sure if you served in the US military or not--looks like you may be in Canada--but here are some webpages with information that you may find useful.
General information:
http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/21/benefits/herbicide/ (note link at bottom for veterans who are not living in the US)
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/
Link to a brochure:
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/docs/AOIB10-49JUL03.pdf
Link to the VA regulation dealing with Agent Orange procedures. Reading this will help you understand what your risks may be and what the VA will do for you. If you are Canadian or have to be examined by a non-VA physician, you should take this with you.
Note that this mentions screening for hepatitis C, which is extremely common in Vietnam-era veterans. Note also that it says you do not need to be enrolled in the VA medical care system to receive a screening exam and that the exam should be provided to you within 30 days of your request.
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/docs/Age ... -05-04.pdf
Link to a webpage which will locate a VA facility near you:
http://www1.va.gov/directory/guide/home.asp?isFlash=1
If you are an honorably discharged US veteran of any era, you should enroll for medical care at the VA, even if you think you won't want to use it. The eligibilities change constantly, so you may or may not be eligible now, but it might open up for you later. If you are already enrolled, keep it current. As you age, just the prescription drug benefits are worth it.
If you know a World War II veteran, make sure they're enrolled soon. A lot of them do not know they are eligible for care.
If you know anyone returning from the middle eastern conflict, encourage them to check out VA care as soon as they return. There is a special program available for them. Getting that care will help document any conditions they may have acquired or will acquire later because of service in the middle east.
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Charlene
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Just a personal thing - my father never had the best of care at the VA hospital. It was slightly better than the base hospital but not much. Also, I was thinking since the VA hospital is run by the government, if there's anything to cover up they would cover it up, whereas a regular civilian hospital wouldn't be controlled as much by the feds.
Big Brother will probably accuse me of thoughtcrime now and come and get me and take me to room 101.
Big Brother will probably accuse me of thoughtcrime now and come and get me and take me to room 101.
Charlene
I'm sorry that your father didn't receive good care. It does happen.Charlene wrote: I was thinking since the VA hospital is run by the government, if there's anything to cover up they would cover it up, whereas a regular civilian hospital wouldn't be controlled as much by the feds.
Letting the VA deal with Agent Orange issues is a good choice. If you go to a civilian for this problem, you have to find one who knows what the problem is. Few of them do, because it is not something "common" to a civilian practice. It's also not something most civilians are going to want to deal with because . . . it is going to be too hard to get paid for it.
Unless you, the patient, want to pay for all of it, that is. The problem is that you will need to be "screened" for that whole long list of conditions. Most insurers do not pay readily for "screenings." You have to have some symptom or the other to warrant doing those tests. If you have no symptoms, it's just screening. If you have the wrong symptoms, it's just screening. Insurers are not in the business of paying out on a whim.
For example, a PSA test for prostate cancer. Nobody pays for those upon demand--you have to be a certain age, or have an enlarged prostate, or some other reason to do the test. And then, you don't get to have an ultrasound or other test on top of it just because you want it. Insurers won't pay for it. If you try to use the "exposed to Agent Orange" ploy, they'll refuse to pay saying you should have been seen at the VA.
Even more so, if you do end up having one of those conditions, you and even your family might be able to receive compensation for it. If you have had children with certain birth defects, they may be entitled to VA care as well! You have to go through the VA for that--they can't give it to you if they don't know. Isn't it better to get what money and care is coming to you than to refuse it?
Yes, the VA is run by the government, but the government doesn't work there. People work there. People who have no reason to or means of covering anything up. Their job is to provide medical care and that's what they do. They are the same kind of people, and in some cases, the same people, who provide medical care in regular hospitals and teach in medical schools. Many of them are military reservists or veterans, so they have a special interest in caring for veterans.
Care in the VA is not always garbed in a decorator environment, so to speak. For that reason, and because care in the VA was often substandard in the past, and because there is often a feeling that anything governmental is substandard, there is a tendency to see poor care in any and all care.
Truly substandard care, driven by profit issues, which occurs in private physician offices and hospitals isn't seen as being substandard because we don't expect to see it there--we believe that civilian medical care is completely altruistic--but it occurs every day. But, the altruistic provision of care at the VA is seen as substandard because we have been conditioned to believe that that is what it is.
Poor care occurs everywhere, unfortunately. When it occurs in a civilian hospital, we don't tend to see it for what it is. When it occurs at the VA, we see it as validation of our belief that governmental medical care is substandard.
There is also an excellent incentive for VA employees to provide good care--if there is even the perception that they are not, the patients write to their congressman to complain. It's very difficult to cover anything up under those circumstances. Yes, the government does run the VA, but there are some seriously effective controls that other areas of the government apply to assure that veterans receive good care.
It is a quieter morning, the mind and heart have calmed and so has the stomach. I thank you all for your quick and loving responses, your prayers, your words of shock and caring, for those that offered sincere advice and places to go to for information, they all helped and my lame words can't really express how they helped but they have. I am happy to know you and call you friend.
I guess it was more of the shock of betrayal that I felt more than the what was done, that a government and people we served did, knowing that our job involved the ultimate scarifice that we as all volunteers who happily and willingly served; would do such a thing, knowing full well what they were doing and then proceeded to cover it up for forty years. Are we or were we that expendible? Seems like it!
To say that it is discusting and dishonourable can't be put into words.
At this moment I am in good health for 58 going on 59. I had my gall bladder removed last December so that involved many tests before and after. My heart is very good, blood pressure excellent for a man my age. I've had a PSA test (one every year for the last eight years), a colonoscopy, CT and MRI scans of my head and thorax nothing was found. Cholesterol is very good. And a laughing doctor who has never said this to a man over forty in his medical career, "Mark you can gain ten pounds if you want." And yes I do think that I could be a lucky one and not be affected by those agents, the luck of the draw maybe.
I'm also aware of the vagaries of our modern living and of growing old, the toxic soup in which we live. Happily and lovingly I accept every day I live for what it can be and for what it was. I carry with me the same undaunting spirit of my mother, regardless how black a moment in your life can be, you will wake up tomorrow and tomorrow is another day of life, so get on with it!
There is word out, that a class action suit is being considered rather than wait for compensation individually, thus letting the government and veterans affairs have the power. Knowing full well how our government has treated service personnel before for WW II, Korea, and Peacekeepers since the sixties. A disbanded band of brothers are now becoming a band of brothers again and the battle will brought on in earnest and the links that you have so kindly posted is giving us the ammunition needed to fight that battle, thank you. I have heard also that U.S. Veterans are offering or are coming forward to help in our battle against our government, in how to fight this battle. A hearty embrace to them! A soldier, a sailor, an airman is a soldier, a sailor, an airman everywhere, even though we did service together or against, there is something there that has been shared and will always be shared, indeed a universal band of brothers/sisters.
I know first hand what and how my father and his comrades were treated by the government after WW II, (the Canadian government was in absolute denial of post traumatic stress syndrome), I won't be treated the same way and my brothers and sisters in arms won't be treated that way. I'm not a pub or street fighter, I'm not a braweler, I don't like war or any conflict but also know that there comes a time when words fail and there is only the ultimate action to be taken. I'm treating this assault on me and my comrades as a call to arms and what that fully means. As a quiet librarian, I will fight with words, with information I know how to find. Our government isn't going to get off lightly or otherwise.
From the bottom of my heart and troubled spirit, I thank you all!
Mark
I guess it was more of the shock of betrayal that I felt more than the what was done, that a government and people we served did, knowing that our job involved the ultimate scarifice that we as all volunteers who happily and willingly served; would do such a thing, knowing full well what they were doing and then proceeded to cover it up for forty years. Are we or were we that expendible? Seems like it!
To say that it is discusting and dishonourable can't be put into words.
At this moment I am in good health for 58 going on 59. I had my gall bladder removed last December so that involved many tests before and after. My heart is very good, blood pressure excellent for a man my age. I've had a PSA test (one every year for the last eight years), a colonoscopy, CT and MRI scans of my head and thorax nothing was found. Cholesterol is very good. And a laughing doctor who has never said this to a man over forty in his medical career, "Mark you can gain ten pounds if you want." And yes I do think that I could be a lucky one and not be affected by those agents, the luck of the draw maybe.
I'm also aware of the vagaries of our modern living and of growing old, the toxic soup in which we live. Happily and lovingly I accept every day I live for what it can be and for what it was. I carry with me the same undaunting spirit of my mother, regardless how black a moment in your life can be, you will wake up tomorrow and tomorrow is another day of life, so get on with it!
There is word out, that a class action suit is being considered rather than wait for compensation individually, thus letting the government and veterans affairs have the power. Knowing full well how our government has treated service personnel before for WW II, Korea, and Peacekeepers since the sixties. A disbanded band of brothers are now becoming a band of brothers again and the battle will brought on in earnest and the links that you have so kindly posted is giving us the ammunition needed to fight that battle, thank you. I have heard also that U.S. Veterans are offering or are coming forward to help in our battle against our government, in how to fight this battle. A hearty embrace to them! A soldier, a sailor, an airman is a soldier, a sailor, an airman everywhere, even though we did service together or against, there is something there that has been shared and will always be shared, indeed a universal band of brothers/sisters.
I know first hand what and how my father and his comrades were treated by the government after WW II, (the Canadian government was in absolute denial of post traumatic stress syndrome), I won't be treated the same way and my brothers and sisters in arms won't be treated that way. I'm not a pub or street fighter, I'm not a braweler, I don't like war or any conflict but also know that there comes a time when words fail and there is only the ultimate action to be taken. I'm treating this assault on me and my comrades as a call to arms and what that fully means. As a quiet librarian, I will fight with words, with information I know how to find. Our government isn't going to get off lightly or otherwise.
From the bottom of my heart and troubled spirit, I thank you all!
Mark
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.
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Cynth
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Lambchop, you make some very good points, particularly that veteran's hospitals will have more data about the variety of symptoms and would know more what to be looking for. I think at one time the government was denying bad effects from Agent Orange (I could be wrong about this), perhaps the effects had not been proven, but that was in the past and things have changed.
MarkB, I'm glad you are feeling a bit better about things and are prepared to be active and undefeated. I'm not sure I could do the same. I think the fact that you are healthy now is a very positive sign.
MarkB, I'm glad you are feeling a bit better about things and are prepared to be active and undefeated. I'm not sure I could do the same. I think the fact that you are healthy now is a very positive sign.
Last edited by Cynth on Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Danner
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It is really, really important to keep your spirits up, no matter what happens. At the end of our sixth grade year, one of my friends got throat cancer, and she was out of school all of seventh grade. She went through a lot, but was able to come back in eighth grade, no problem. Her immune system is weaker, and she's still trying to grow back her hair, but there's nothing else wrong. It's really amazing how she kept her spirits up so high and came out of it with no adverse effects. A lot of people here think that things might have come out very differently if she hadn't been so cheerful.
Good luck with whatever happens Mark.
Good luck with whatever happens Mark.
"'Tis deeds, not blood, which determine the worth of a being." -Dennis L. McKiernan
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chattiekathy
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Mark, I am sorry that this happened to you and I sure hope and pray that you are one of the lucky ones.
I agree about keeping your spirits up! They always say that laughter is the best medicine. C&F sure is a good place to find that!
May God Bless you and I will put you on my prayer list!
Kathy
I agree about keeping your spirits up! They always say that laughter is the best medicine. C&F sure is a good place to find that!
May God Bless you and I will put you on my prayer list!
Kathy
~*~Creativity is God's gift to you. What you do with it is your gift to God~*~
Mark, you sound much better this morning! You have every right to feel put out by this. This sort of thing happened here and in a lot of other places, as well. But, by the grace of God, our experience with it and how we have dealt with it will serve as a force for change so that our children won't have to go through it.
There was a reluctance to admit that the substance had anything to do with the conditions veterans were experiencing, and it was partly due to an interest in denial for its own nefarious purposes--look how long exposure to ionizing radiation had been denied!--but the effects of AO hadn't been proven. It sometimes takes a while. A lot of changes have been made in recent years to improve the situation for this and other conditions.
Prostate cancer and diabetes were recently added to the AO list without nearly as much drama--which is kind of unfortunate, in a way, because those who need to know about it may not hear of it without that fanfare! There are huge programs now for PTSD, and I think you'll see something eventually on that mysterious condition Desert Storm veterans experience (they haven't even figured out yet what it is).
And the VA isn't the agency doing the denying. Their employees are the ones noticing connections and trying to do something about it, but coverage of a condition doesn't happen without federal decree. Neither does the VA wait for people to find them anymore--they go out looking. It's not uncommon to see them roaming around with mobile RVs, setting up at shopping mall health fairs, sporting events, and veterans conventions. Their goal, in fact, is to become the health care provider of choice for veterans, even veterans who have their own insurance coverage, and in some areas they are becoming that.
Mark, the veterans service organizations which will help you know exactly what they are doing and they are very, very good at it. I'm sure you will find them invaluable to your cause. They assist both groups and individuals. They're so good at it that the VA itself provides on-site office space for them. I have a knee and a few other little annoyances I'm thinking about trying to get service-connected, and they'll be the first place I'll go.
No, you're not wrong. They did. Covering up used to be a fine tradition, but it's falling out of favor.Cynth wrote:I think at one time the government was denying bad effects from Agent Orange (I could be wrong about this), perhaps the effects had not been proven, but that was in the past and things have changed.
There was a reluctance to admit that the substance had anything to do with the conditions veterans were experiencing, and it was partly due to an interest in denial for its own nefarious purposes--look how long exposure to ionizing radiation had been denied!--but the effects of AO hadn't been proven. It sometimes takes a while. A lot of changes have been made in recent years to improve the situation for this and other conditions.
Prostate cancer and diabetes were recently added to the AO list without nearly as much drama--which is kind of unfortunate, in a way, because those who need to know about it may not hear of it without that fanfare! There are huge programs now for PTSD, and I think you'll see something eventually on that mysterious condition Desert Storm veterans experience (they haven't even figured out yet what it is).
And the VA isn't the agency doing the denying. Their employees are the ones noticing connections and trying to do something about it, but coverage of a condition doesn't happen without federal decree. Neither does the VA wait for people to find them anymore--they go out looking. It's not uncommon to see them roaming around with mobile RVs, setting up at shopping mall health fairs, sporting events, and veterans conventions. Their goal, in fact, is to become the health care provider of choice for veterans, even veterans who have their own insurance coverage, and in some areas they are becoming that.
Mark, the veterans service organizations which will help you know exactly what they are doing and they are very, very good at it. I'm sure you will find them invaluable to your cause. They assist both groups and individuals. They're so good at it that the VA itself provides on-site office space for them. I have a knee and a few other little annoyances I'm thinking about trying to get service-connected, and they'll be the first place I'll go.
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Jeferson
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Mark, please know that the people of Canada will stand alongside you and help fight this battle. Many of us have been watching this story unfold on the CBC National this week. Unfortunately, we can't step back and undo the wrong that was done, but there's an opportunity at this time to do the right thing. You most certainly deserve it.
I can't even begin to imagine the sense of betrayal you must feel. Our government horribly messed up during that time. They allowed the Americans to spray chemicals that they themselves had stopped using a year earlier in Vietnam. Clearly, the American government has things to answer for, too, but it was our own government that allowed this to happen on our soil and to our people. They had a duty to look out for your interests, and they let you down.
I've emailed my MP and Bill Graham. Mr. Graham invited any folks who'd been affected to contact his office. I hope he hears the message loud and clear, and I hope that this government's fragile minority will increase the speed with which they act.
It's great to hear that your health is good. Best wishes to you.
Jef
I can't even begin to imagine the sense of betrayal you must feel. Our government horribly messed up during that time. They allowed the Americans to spray chemicals that they themselves had stopped using a year earlier in Vietnam. Clearly, the American government has things to answer for, too, but it was our own government that allowed this to happen on our soil and to our people. They had a duty to look out for your interests, and they let you down.
I've emailed my MP and Bill Graham. Mr. Graham invited any folks who'd been affected to contact his office. I hope he hears the message loud and clear, and I hope that this government's fragile minority will increase the speed with which they act.
It's great to hear that your health is good. Best wishes to you.
Jef
Thank you Jef for your kind and thoughtful words and thank you for writing your MP.
From today's CBC news broadcast:
The cover-up and damn lies have grown in the dark and I think are about ready to blow up in the governments face.
Sorry for the length of the article but you can read between the lines and see how explosive this is going to become.
C B C . C A N e w s - F u l l S t o r y :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toxic herbicide could still be on army base, scientist says
Last Updated Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:58 EDT
CBC News
Traces of a toxic herbicide sprayed at CFB Gagetown in the 1960s probably still remain on the base, according to an environmental scientist.
"If you went back to the areas today where Agent Purple was sprayed and undertook some sampling, there's a high probability that you will find some dioxin, given the analytical techniques of today," said Wayne Dwernychuk.
Wayne Dwernychuk.
CBC News revealed on Monday that a U.S. army report shows Agent Purple, considered three times more toxic than the cancer-linked Agent Orange, was sprayed on the base in 1966.
To date, the government has only acknowledged the harm caused by spraying Agent Orange in 1966 and 1967 at CFB Gagetown. The Canadian military is paying compensation in two cases connected to the spraying.
Dwernychuk went to Vietnam in 1994 to research how the chemical defoliants Agents Orange and Purple had affected the environment there. He found the dioxins remained in the soil.
He believes that dioxin is likely still sitting in the ground at CFB Gagetown and may be leeching into the water system, which could pose a risk to people.
"Through the process of biomagnification, it could eventually end up in humans," Dwenychuk said.
He wants the government to do a health study of the communities around CFB Gagetown.
Civilians who say they were affected by toxic chemicals sprayed at Gagetown are now asking for compensation.
FROM JUNE 14, 2005: Civilians want compensation for chemical spraying at N.B. base
Defence Minister Bill Graham in the Commons.
Defence Minister Bill Graham said on Monday that there will be compensation for people who can show a link between their disease and the spraying of the herbicide.
Graham has defended the government's past use of the herbicide, saying it was widely used back then and that at the time, there was no belief there was any risk to humans.
But Dwenychuk said he's puzzled why the government believed Agent Purple was safe. The U.S. military used the herbicide from 1962 to 1965, ceasing use in 1965.
"If Agent Purple was stopped in terms of applications in Vietnam in 1965, why was it used in New Brunswick in 1966," he asked.
MarkB
From today's CBC news broadcast:
The cover-up and damn lies have grown in the dark and I think are about ready to blow up in the governments face.
Sorry for the length of the article but you can read between the lines and see how explosive this is going to become.
C B C . C A N e w s - F u l l S t o r y :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toxic herbicide could still be on army base, scientist says
Last Updated Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:11:58 EDT
CBC News
Traces of a toxic herbicide sprayed at CFB Gagetown in the 1960s probably still remain on the base, according to an environmental scientist.
"If you went back to the areas today where Agent Purple was sprayed and undertook some sampling, there's a high probability that you will find some dioxin, given the analytical techniques of today," said Wayne Dwernychuk.
Wayne Dwernychuk.
CBC News revealed on Monday that a U.S. army report shows Agent Purple, considered three times more toxic than the cancer-linked Agent Orange, was sprayed on the base in 1966.
To date, the government has only acknowledged the harm caused by spraying Agent Orange in 1966 and 1967 at CFB Gagetown. The Canadian military is paying compensation in two cases connected to the spraying.
Dwernychuk went to Vietnam in 1994 to research how the chemical defoliants Agents Orange and Purple had affected the environment there. He found the dioxins remained in the soil.
He believes that dioxin is likely still sitting in the ground at CFB Gagetown and may be leeching into the water system, which could pose a risk to people.
"Through the process of biomagnification, it could eventually end up in humans," Dwenychuk said.
He wants the government to do a health study of the communities around CFB Gagetown.
Civilians who say they were affected by toxic chemicals sprayed at Gagetown are now asking for compensation.
FROM JUNE 14, 2005: Civilians want compensation for chemical spraying at N.B. base
Defence Minister Bill Graham in the Commons.
Defence Minister Bill Graham said on Monday that there will be compensation for people who can show a link between their disease and the spraying of the herbicide.
Graham has defended the government's past use of the herbicide, saying it was widely used back then and that at the time, there was no belief there was any risk to humans.
But Dwenychuk said he's puzzled why the government believed Agent Purple was safe. The U.S. military used the herbicide from 1962 to 1965, ceasing use in 1965.
"If Agent Purple was stopped in terms of applications in Vietnam in 1965, why was it used in New Brunswick in 1966," he asked.
MarkB
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.