Need session etiquette advice

[eskin]

I'll pull them aside, acknowledge their enthusiasm for the music, explain the incredible responsiblity that a backup player has in a session setting, look them in the eye and tell them in the most sincere and concerned tone of voice what they are doing isn't working, and suggest to them to either flatpick on the guitar take up the mandolin to learn the melodies, since its nearly impossible to back this music if you don't know the tune.

Then there will be a terrible, awkward moment, you'll get an adrenaline rush because of the fear of what will happen next, the rest of the night will be an uncomfortable experience for everyone present, but chances are, they won't be back next week. Usually, they last about 8 more minutes before slinking out the door.

At least that's how its been when I've had to ask a problematic backup player to stop playing at a session I host. There is no easy way unless you have the rare individual who acknowledges their lack of experience and actively requests feedback. Its the worst part about hosting a session, and I hate to have to do it.

We had one night where we were sure that the guitarist who I gave this talk to drove off in a flurry of spinning tires and we were sure that he was going to come back and kill everyone in the pub, so be careful, not everyone is of sound mind...

[Andy Parnell]

You may be right on the great session thing. I had a great session in London where the banjo player lead the way and was the most steady beat possible for everyone else to take their cue from. Unfortunately, it's mostly the melody players who are taking the lead in many sessions and the strummers come along because they think that's the easy option in learning music.

A truly great rhythym section however can actually take your music to even greater heights! They know just what to do when and it makes your music even more uplifting (providing your uplifting to start with!).

There's nothing worse than you playing a top tune like The Merry Sisters of Fate on Uilleann Pipes and the 'beaters' are waaaaaaaaay out and you're doing everything in your concentration to screen them out and keep your own beat though!

Cheers!

Andy

[SteveShaw]

Re: Guitarists and drummers

yet in a good session, it's these people who are supposed to hold the session together and 'keep the beat'.

Actually this is what happens in mediocre sessions. Guitarists and drummers are required to mark out a steady beat for everyone so the group is more tolerable to listen to. In a good session the melody players can actually keep a steady tempo. Everything rhythmic can be generated soley by the melody players with more complexity than any strummer or beater can do.

Spot-on, mate, and it's unison playing by melody instruments with no accompaniment that I enjoy most of all. Just the odd double-stop or harmonising note to add spice....

Steve

[Eldarion]

You may be right on the great session thing. I had a great session in London where the banjo player lead the way and was the most steady beat possible for everyone else to take their cue from.

Personally I don't think it is great when people are taking their cues from someone else in order to keep their beat steady. Being able to independently generate a steady beat should be a fundamental skill for all sessioneers. Without this, true musical interaction cannot exist - which takes away half the point of playing with other musicians at all.

The result becomes closer to that of playing to a CD recording - simply playing to someone's music, not playing and interacting as musicians having a musical conversation.

And why does any good Irish musician need a rhythm section when they should be perfectly capable of generating all the groovey rhythm with more complexity and subtlety by themselves? The melody players are the rhythm section.

[monkey587]

Personally I don't think it is great when people are taking their cues from someone else in order to keep their beat steady. Being able to independently generate a steady beat should be a fundamental skill for all sessioneers. Without this, true musical interaction cannot exist - which takes away half the point of playing with other musicians at all.

The result becomes closer to that of playing to a CD recording - simply playing to someone's music, not playing and interacting as musicians having a musical conversation.

And why does any good Irish musician need a rhythm section when they should be perfectly capable of generating all the groovey rhythm with more complexity and subtlety by themselves? The melody players are the rhythm section.

It's important for ALL musicians to be able to generate a steady beat... Not just session musicians

I think a good accompanist can add a lot to the music, but the music doesn't NEED it, and most of the time the accompanist is not even minimally competent. and sometimes (like on thursday) drunk.

I think I will try the helpful approach. Those bluegrass chords clash with the melody. I'll still be able to hear you if the soundhole's further than 6 inches from my ear. Your recorder makes everything sound like the Brave Sir Robin song.

Someone on C&F have mentioned keeping a pile of meg whistles on hand to pass out to interested people. I wish there was a $3 metronome I could purchase by the case and pass out to people who need them

[Andy Parnell]

The reality is, it's normally a few people who lead the session, there are a few I've been to where everyone is at the same level of playing but that's not that often.

About the best session I'd been to was one where some of the best muso's in the UK were at a house warming in London with 40 of us going at it till 6 in the morning! That was something else! Many of them were truly world class!

If I was for example in a room with Liam O'Flynn, I doubt I'd be able to be fully independent of him. I'd probably see where he's going with the music and fit in with that. In the session I'm going to now, many people are taking their cue from me.

It's great when you get a session where everyone has the power to hold their own, but sadly, that's a rare thing to be treasured. You're talking about a session that has no beginners trying to keep up with the experienced who are both inspired from them but also trying to learn from them.

I'm all for really good guitarists and bodhran players though, they DO take the music to another height. If you doubt me on this, listen to any good CD (Lunasa, Martin Hayes with Denis, etc) and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

I think though that too many people want to join in on a session and rather than choosing an instrument they really want to learn, they choose something that looks easy (drum, guitar) but really isn't at all!

If a session has muso's that each have been playing for 20 years, you'll get what you mentioned as the ideal. The reality is, you'll have people playing for 1 or 2 years next to someone that's been at it for 20 years. What do you do?

IN one of the sessions I went to last week, a Bodhran player couldn't play for peanuts and wouldn't stop playing. My partner who is a good Bodhran player didn't play much as this other woman wouldn't give her a chance (too many drummers spoil a session). Rather than stopping and listening to my partner play and learn something, she just keeps making the same mistakes...so I did my slip jigs routine to shut her up for a while!

It's these people that bug me, not the ones that actually want to learn and may occassionally overdo it in enthusiasm. We've all been there.

The problem is, there are unwritten rules for sessions that we all know but the uninitiated don't. Perhaps we need to do up an advice sheet for people or something?

Cheers!

Andy

[Eldarion]

I think a good accompanist can add a lot to the music, but the music doesn't NEED it, and most of the time the accompanist is not even minimally competent. and sometimes (like on thursday) drunk.

The thing about accompanists is, often they don't even have to be bad musicians per se (or drunk) to take away from the music.

[Eldarion]

If I was for example in a room with Liam O'Flynn, I doubt I'd be able to be fully independent of him. I'd probably see where he's going with the music and fit in with that. In the session I'm going to now, many people are taking their cue from me.

In this hypothetical situation I'm not saying that you are to be fully independent of him, just not using him as a crutch to keep a steady beat. (if you have do that to you're probably better off simply listening and observing his playing this time round)

In fact with great sessions you should not aim to be fully independent. You want to be able to listen to your fellow musicians and respond, bounce the energies off each other. Its the interaction that brings the experience to a whole new level. Thats one thing about those 40 people sessions, its just a wall of sound and who's listening to who?

It's great when you get a session where everyone has the power to hold their own, but sadly, that's a rare thing to be treasured. You're talking about a session that has no beginners trying to keep up with the experienced who are both inspired from them but also trying to learn from them.

Again I'm just talking about fundamentals like being able to keep a steady beat before going out to session. You don't exactly have to be Seamus Ennis to do that. Its a basic courtesy to your fellow musicians and the foundation for musical interaction.

[Andy Parnell]

How do you stop beginners going out to sessions though? Keeping a beat may *sound* simple enough, but in reality, most beginner's don't until at least 3 to 4 years of serious learn time. Most are going to sessions at about 1 year's time mark. I think you're talking about the more closed high brow sessions rather than the 'average' one. I agree with you about the ideal, but we also live in the real world where such 'courtesy' of staying away from sessions for 4 years first until competence is seen is sadly not likely. Nor is it necessarily desireable.

I admit that I've often given up on a session because too many beginners' have spoilt the session (or too many English trad folk musicians!). Sometimes, I even prefer no session...but you'll never stop the beginner's going to sessions (unless you do a closed one). You can either do the 'musical facist' thing and ban beginner's from sessions or you can find some way to incorporate them into the session and encourage them but keep them 'under one's wing'. I prefer the later but draw the line at those who just want an 'easy option' (choosing an instrument just so you've got something to bang on whilst drinking a pint) rather than willing to really show enthusiasm and learn.

In the hypothetical situation with Liam, I'd be the beginner again...I certainly wouldn't be leading the session at that point, which, is my main point, a session is an average of the experience of the musicians. If the mean average is 3 years, you've got a very basic session. If it's 7 years, you've got a good one. If it's 15 years, you're well on your way to stardom! If the average experience is even greater than that, well, you should take the session on tour!

Seems like we agree on the other point of muso's feeding off each other. Interdependence rather than independence. In that 40 person session, where the average experience level was in the 15 to 20 years category, it wasn't just a wall of sound, it was a crecendo of power playing! The whole building was shaking with emotion and fever! The quality of playing was truly awesome! You couldn't distinguish between the music and yourself...it was like a whole 'nother level of session to the norm...several of the best musicians in London were there and most were melody instruments. It didn't sound like a wall of sound, it was so powerful the very walls were shaking! The creative energies created a synergy beyond anything I've experienced since...

Cheers!


Andy

[SteveShaw]

[The thing about accompanists is, often they don't even have to be bad musicians per se (or drunk) to take away from the music.

At risk of sounding like the president of Eldarion's fan club, he's spot on again. Over the years we've had a superb guitar player in our session from a jazz-orientated background (as if I'd know - jazz - yikes!). But he was nothing more than a one-man session-wrecker to the rest of us. He doesn't come any more. Then we occasionally have to put up with another guy who was actually a member of a fairly famous 70s-80s rock band. Brilliant guitarist...one chord for every note of every reel...know what I mean? ITM is funny stuff to accompany and you have to have it totally under your skin before you inflict yourself on everyone else. Like bodhran players, guitarists are simply not needed, so if they want to be a part of it they need to adopt a huge degree of humility and be prepared to learn from the very few who have proved that they can hack it in an idiomatic way...therein lyeth another thread!

Steve

[Nanohedron]

I think a good accompanist can add a lot to the music, but the music doesn't NEED it, and most of the time the accompanist is not even minimally competent. and sometimes (like on thursday) drunk.

The thing about accompanists is, often they don't even have to be bad musicians per se (or drunk) to take away from the music.

That is exactly the case with the guitarist I mentioned earlier. She is classically trained, and can play melodies quite admirably. Come the time for backup, however, it's a brutal thing. At least she brings a metal-strung guitar to the sessions, now.

[Eldarion]

How do you stop beginners going out to sessions though? Keeping a beat may *sound* simple enough, but in reality, most beginner's don't until at least 3 to 4 years of serious learn time. Most are going to sessions at about 1 year's time mark.

That sounds very odd to me. How can something so basic to the music take 3 to 4 years of serious learn time to master? Evidently it is something that is not prioritised for these people - too busy trying to play fast maybe.

However I do agree that beginners are going to play in sessions before they are ready (and even before being able to generate a steady beat). Does this happen because this is just "folk music"? What ever happened to listening to the session - or is the session not worth listening to?

Premature session playing is simply detrimental to all parties. It's not the most respectful thing to do for one thing, the beginner should realise that the other musicians do feel the effect in music dynamics. They are real people and have ears, this is not a album recording one is playing to. It is also bad for the beginner and can stunt one's musical growth. The beginners end up sacrificing everything to "sound like" they are playing in unison to the melody. Truth is, throughout the whole time they do not learn to independently generate a steady rhythm, usually stuck with playing the bare bones of the melody repeat after repeat, practicing and reenforcing their own bad habits over and over again. It is just the recipe for turning oneself into a mediocre hack who churns out uninspiring sod.

[cowtime]

Here's another idea that's just a suggestion-(although there have been some great one's here), and may be commonly done for all I know :roll: -

If there's less skilled folks wrecking the music for those who play much better, have a set time at the beginning of the evening's musical enjoyment, that is open for folks who think they can play with the seasoned musicians.They play for the first thirty minutes to an hour, for example, This is more a practice session during which new players have their time with the group.The time is set aside for everyone who has the idea they want to play in the session . Be sure that this is a steadfast rule ' You can't play in the later session until you are deemed "worthy".The better players may want to rotate around here for this duty of playing with the early group. . If it's in a pub/bar talk to the owner. Get a sign posting the "rules" and have the owner post it in a very visible place on session nights. This lets everyone know they have to play by the rules, without the ordeal of confronting some one and telling them they just can't cut it and are ruining it for the devoted players.

After the designated "first session" time limit, the session is closed to the "general public" and players can play in the second session only if invited .Those recieving pratice and instruction during the first session can either leave or stick around and learn from listening/observing the better players. New folks can't just waltz in and play without passing through the first session. This gives a realistic goal to work toward and keeps those who can play on a higher level from frustration.


This can develop the talented folks who are not up to the level of the second group or not really familiar with ITM into good musicians that will become assets to the music. They've got the will to practice and learn and they will take the experience home and put in the long hours to become really good. This will also weed out the ones that thought they could do it, but in fact cannot. Unfortunately, there are those folks whose musical "sense" is so poor that they will never have a clue. At least this keeps them from messing with the advanced group, since they will never progress and hopefully will soon find something else to do.

It's kinda like having different grade sessions when I think of it. We do it in pipe bands. The grade five band will meet and some players will work their way up to Grade one. Others will never progress out of grade five and are perfectly happy. I've also seen this done it in clogging classes. Even if you say ," I can do it," you've still got to prove it to the powers that be, before you move into a more advanced group.

I don't have a clue if this would work for sessions, but it might. If the session is in a bar/pub get the owner to work with you on this. It's to their advantage also to keep those who are really making good music happy and at their establishment.

[Baglady]

' You can't play in the later session until you are deemed "worthy".

This worked for many years in our area but there comes a point where a problem arises with who does the "deeming". In the egalitarian self governed session community clear leadership is not always evident especially to the newby. And any community that is open enough to have people trying to sit in will be subject also to a lot of coming and going of the more experienced players. Eventually the hierarchy breaks down and the session is abandoned.

Most session have to grow strong enough to withstand the onslaught of negative forces or become transient as tinkers, moving from one place to another to have a few months of peace until the 'others' find them.

The pipe band thing works because of the clear hierarchy.

[Andy Parnell]

But the problem with these rules and the anti-guitarist thing is that it really starts to become 'musical facism'.

A balance needs to be struck but I do like the idea of beginners and experienced sessions one starting after the other and it's up to the individual to self-categorise themselves. This gets the balance that's needed. Occassionally, there will be the odd person who puts themselves in the wrong category but that will show. With these adjustments, the idea will work I think.

A mate of mine is a brilliant guitarist and a top whilste player too. He knows just what to do. Once again, a brilliant Irish music guitarist or Bodhran player is worth their weight in gold at a session. Just because someone can play jazz or bluesgrass well doesn't qualify though.

Finally, on timing, you say it's a simple thing but I've heard so many 20 year players get it wrong too, so I'm not so sure you're correct there either. Sure they can hold a basic beat, but to get it consistently right on every beat all the time is a whole different ball game and so many people get it wrong (I even come unstuck on the odd occassion). Can a 1 year muso do this consistently, no, but they pick up that beat by sitting in a session and then listening to CD's and so forth. If you're saying that you got perfect timing after one year, then you're the exception not the rule. Most have to work hard at it and it starts to come after several years of playing.

I don't advise players to play in a session until at least 3 years experience in anycase. I've heard two theories, the traditional piping theory where one doesn't enter sessions full stop, except with other pipers and the more modern version where you enter sessions but have time out periods to just simply work on your own for a while to develop your own style. I'm of the later variety and I suspect most here are. However, I've met many pipers who don't play in sessions but are happy to play with other pipers.

Hope that comes full circle on this tingy?


Cheers!

Andy