Do you play Rudall or Pratten?

[Denny]

Well, if you are going in for one of the seven sins... Lust is "pick of the litter"

Denny

[bradhurley]

How can he get such exact measurements throughout the bore????

There is a cool little tool for this...I forget the proper name but you could call it an "expansion caliper." It's a sort of spring-action caliper at the end of a long stem that you insert down the bore. When you get to the part of the bore that you want to measure, you press a button or plunger at the end of the stem, and the caliper expands to fit the inside of the bore. The stem is marked so you know the exact distance down the bore that you're measuring as well.

Interesting discussion here.

I always thought one of the main differences between these two styles was that the Rudall flutes had more "perturbations" in the bore, with more complex reamers, and that the Pratten-style flutes had a more straightforward taper to them. To my ear the sound of a Rudall or Rudall-style flute tends to be richer and less "pure" than that of a Pratten, presumably due to the more complex bore.

Funny that the loudest flutes I've ever heard have all been Rudalls...I don't know where people get this idea that Rudalls are quiet flutes.

[Eldarion]

I always thought one of the main differences between these two styles was that the Rudall flutes had more "perturbations" in the bore, with more complex reamers, and that the Pratten-style flutes had a more straightforward taper to them. To my ear the sound of a Rudall or Rudall-style flute tends to be richer and less "pure" than that of a Pratten, presumably due to the more complex bore.

Thats what I thought too. What I would also be interested to know is, how many of the contemporary flute makers making flutes in the "Rudall" style actually include this chambering/complex bore design in their work?

[Cathy Wilde]

When you think about it, pretty much any flute by one of today's makers could be called "improved" (if nothing else for social tuning purposes -- i.e., so it will play nicely with others).

But I'm kind of fond of the big bores myself. (Maybe because I am one? )

[Sillydill]

Hey Brad,

There is a cool little tool for this...I forget the proper name but you could call it an "expansion caliper." It's a sort of spring-action caliper at the end of a long stem that you insert down the bore.

When I was an Undergraduate, I worked in the Civil Engineer Departments Machine Shop for 2-3 years. I loved the exacting work and none of it was "production" ie. every pieces was unique and new! We used expansion calipers, but they are inexact at best, I used to take at least 3 measurements with them and then average the results.

I thought about mentioning these in my original post, but decided not to.

I think McGee, Migoya etc.. must have a more precise instrument for conducting their research.

Thanks for the input though!

Jordan

[bradhurley]

Well, there are also the ol-fashioned bore-measuring tools, described here:

http://www.flutes.fsbusiness.co.uk/Bore.html

But the tool I remember watching one flute-maker use was modern and I think he said there were very precise digital models available now...I could be mistaken though, as this was 5-10 years ago and my memory's hazy!

[Denis]

Hi Brad,

Lots of nice bore gage sets on Ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/bore-gage_W0QQsojsZ1QQfromZR40

A person would need to select a set that works within the range of interest.

The older dial versions are just as good for this purpose as the more modern digital products.

Mitutoyo gages are good ones to consider ... very rugged.

[Sillydill]

Hey Brad,

Thanks for the link!

I hadn't thought of disks.

Jordan

[David Levine]

Referring to the previous page, people were debating which flute the Matt Molloy plays-- Rudall or Pratten. In fact MM now plays an Olwell, which Patrick himself calls a Nicholson.
And FWIW, Matt pays retail.

[Blayne Chastain]

Hi
I have had more rudalls and prattens go through my hands over the years that i can't remember how many, the rudall without a doubt has the sweetest tone, unmatched by any other 8 keyed flute, it also has all the carrying power you want in a flute.
The pratten is also a fine flute, and can be as loud as you want it to be, but it lacks the sweet tone of the rudall, i find the tone of the pratten to be what i call dry,I know some people will say "'hey some of the best flute players play pratten flutes", i still say its a dry tone, and can not match the sweet tone that can be produced from a rudall flute,
ask any longtime rudall players why they will never change to a pratten.

Sorry I'm so late to the discussion (been up in the mountains!) but - well put. That has been my experience as well. I play a high-end repro of a Boosey Pratten mainly but if I ever had the chance at a larger holed Rudall that was a player, I'd go for it. I'd still have a Pratten on hand though... My friend David Migoya said it best "Blayne... you'll never find a flute that does EVERYTHING well." Well put.

[AaronMalcomb]

In fact MM now plays an Olwell, which Patrick himself calls a Nicholson.

So are you saying that The Flute in question is an Olwell flute designed from the "Nicholson Improved" and not from a R&R or Pratten?

Though it's from 1997, the Molloy interview on Brad Hurley's is a good read... well, all the interviews are.

Cheers,
Aaron

[David Levine]

PO's flutes are more of a blend of characteristics than a copy of any one given flute. Patrick spent hours at one point in his career doing extensive research in the Dayton-Miller collection. He has designed his own balance between finger holes, bore taper, chimney height, embouchure hole cut, and scale to get the sound he wants-- which is clear, sweet, and powerful. That's why his flutes are in such demand. His flutes are not copies, but are his own designs.
More traditional Rudall copies -- Bryan Byrne, Chris Wilkes, Michael Grinter -- have different characteristics than either Olwell's Nicholson, or, for instance, Hammy's or Mcgee's "Pratten" models.
My Rudall-Carte (1867) has larger finger holes and bore than earlier Rudalls, though some Rudalls from 1840 also have large holes and bore. I play my Rudall-Carte with either a Wilkes head or an Olwell head.
All this being said, I would still sound like me whether I am playing my Rudall, an Olwell, or a Hammy. I "hear" my Hammy better when I play it at a loud session -- but it might not sound louder to anybody else. The Olwell is easier to play. The Rudall fits my hands best.
FWIW, Jimmy Noonan, a spectacular player, plays a small-holed boxwood Rudall with great power and projection.

[johnkerr]

In fact MM now plays an Olwell, which Patrick himself calls a Nicholson.
And FWIW, Matt pays retail.

Although I bet Patrick does cut him a break on the waiting list, wouldn't you say?

[johnkerr]

PO's flutes are more of a blend of characteristics than a copy of any one given flute.

And his designs have changed over the years as well. Always improving, he is. I was down at his shop just the other day to pick up a new blackwood C flute he made for me (keyless, unlined head joint, no tuning slide - for all you flute geeks out there), and while I was there I took the opportunity to have him give my D keyed flute the once-over and also to put the serial number on it. I got the headjoint of that flute back in 1992 (the keyed pieces came five years later), and Patrick pointed out right away how he has changed the cut on the embouchure hole now from what he was doing back then. Ever so slightly, but when you look at the hole on my new flute against the hole on my older one, you can see it, and I can feel the difference when I play the two back to back. And I'm sure he's tweaked other things over the years as well. Now keep in mind that my old flute is perfect. So that just shows that Patrick is an artist rather than a mere craftsman, because only an artist would seek to improve upon perfection - and pull it off to boot!