[quote]
On 2002-05-22 11:56, Wandering_Whistler wrote:
Sheet music will give you the base notes, and midi will do the same. Neither will give you the 'flavor' of Irish music..the style, phrasing..that touch of soul.
[quote]
I wonder if there's anyone, on this message board or anywhere else, who actually disagrees with this.
One certainly needs direct, human contact with the musical tradition in order to learn it. But the lack of a human touch in a metronome or sheet music does not mean they don't have value to a student, especially when developing general musical skills.
Sheet music/MIDI is really only seriously proposed as a supplemental thing for practice, rather than a replacement for actual exposure to real people playing the music.
=Caj
For those who use printed music to learn tunes
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Wandering_Whistler
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Disagrees? Probably not many. "Is not aware of" is more the audience I was aiming to reach. When I was new, I wasn't aware of the absolute importance in hearing the tunes played by real musicians. I mistakenly believed that since midi files were perfect computerized representations of sheet music, that they would give me perfect renditions of irish tunes. That belief led me to learn a lot of tunes that I later had to completely re-evaluate.
That said, I'm not in disagreement with you at all about the value of sheet music and midi files as supplemental tools. I often come down on the "there's nothing wrong with sheet music" side of the argument..after all, I do maintain a website with over 600 pieces of sheet music and midi files myself!
That said, I'm not in disagreement with you at all about the value of sheet music and midi files as supplemental tools. I often come down on the "there's nothing wrong with sheet music" side of the argument..after all, I do maintain a website with over 600 pieces of sheet music and midi files myself!
On 2002-05-22 12:42, Caj wrote:
I wonder if there's anyone, on this message board or anywhere else, who actually disagrees with this.
One certainly needs direct, human contact with the musical tradition in order to learn it. But the lack of a human touch in a metronome or sheet music does not mean they don't have value to a student, especially when developing general musical skills.
Sheet music/MIDI is really only seriously proposed as a supplemental thing for practice, rather than a replacement for actual exposure to real people playing the music.
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tomandceil
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I almost always learn tunes from books, as I personally find it easier, and I like to rummage through old and lesser known books to find old and lesser known tunes. I haven't yet mastered abc, though I do appreciate the simplicity of it, and have printed out dozens of tunes "for when I get around to learning the notation", so I say. But never, NEVER try to learn tunes where the ornamentation is alkready set in place. OK, a roll here, a trill there perhaps. Some books I've seen, particularly those devoted to the repertoire of a particular musician, notate every little nuance of that musician's playing. But that is *that* musician's playing, it's not necessarily going to be *your* style. Besides which, it's difficult to negotiate these little nuances what with all these little grace notes, arrows, and other symbols. Better to learn a bare-bones melody, then ornament your own way. Besides, the session players aren't going to know your particular ornaments learned out of a particular book, and what they'll be playing will confude you, and you'll confuse them. I've also made notations in some of the of the books Iown with what I decided would be *my* particular arrangement of a particular tune. A year or two later, I'll pull out the book, and I'll realize that I really don't like the ornamentation I scribbled in there, and want to do something else. This isn't a static music. Not only does it change, you'll change, and your approaches to tunes will change. If you learn the tune, plain and simple, and then develop it your way, through studying tutorials, playing sessions with other musicians, asking questions, whatever it takes, then you'll be on the right road. Ornamentation is *self*-expression.
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The Weekenders
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I see my thread is still alive, as continued by Tom and Ceil. I reiterate in response to that post:
My point remains that there are some nearly standard places where ornaments occur based on multiple versions I have heard and its a disservice to not represent them accurately. I think Norbecks does the best job while many tunebooks vary wildly. I had also pointed out that tunebooks provide new lesser-known things to play but I was referring to session tunes, that smaller body of commonly-played regulars.
Some ornaments are so fundamental to the tune that to omit them changes the tune too much. The very first note of Kesh is an example. I have seen it as a dotted quarter, a roll, or three eighths (gf#g). If you go to Norbecks, you will find a dotted quarter with a roll over the top.I haven't heard a version of Kesh that doesn't start with at least a sense of the dotted quarter or roll feel as opposed to just three notes. But its a big world....
In Norbecks, you have those "bare bones" but you also have a reminder of what you will eventually do and its pretty consistent. I like that. Look at McCulloughs and you will see three eighth notes (gf#g). It doesn't seem to match up with recorded versions very well.. Even a stark beginner can play a dotted quarter then add the roll later (exactly how I learned it). But if he thinks its those three eighth notes, he will not do what most people do PRESUMABLY (and that;s a huge assumption on my part admittedly and I solicited Forum reactions for that reason). That was my point.
That is McCullough's solution and I think its an unfortunate choice because it regularizes jigs into continuous strings of triplets beyond what they already can be without care. Jigs have to be seen as uneven triplets with a forceful onebeat feel (more with singles and slides) with phrases often shaped by deviations from those very triplets via rolls, extra sixteenths, even four figures, otherwise people play em too classical. That first roll in Kesh or even a dotted quarter makes it a completely different piece by opposing the later triplets.I just think beginners deserve a glimpse of what will be rather than to be misled then corrected later. I got really frustrated with sheet music that wasn't on point then discovered Norbecks and wanted to save others this whole process.
I am editing in a note to point out that I wish no disrespect to L.E. McCullough as he is my first "teacher" of whistle via his tutor before I discovered everyone else. He has done wonderful things for whistlers. The premise of the session book though, is "hold your own with other players." I always felt a little funny about that and I wonder if the whole project went askew on a questionable premise (cater to beginners so they'll want it by keeping it simple).
Upon reflection, my point about reels is weakened somewhat because I do notice rolls omitted more. I played along with Virtual Session the other day and found rolls pretty much gone. But it didn't sound that great to me without them. And since Peter pointed out the importance of the Breathnach Vol. 1, I went back to that and looked closer. He does use the shorthand of course but there are more session tunes than I thought. Their Erse titles fooled me and I didn't look close enough! The cover price of over $20 per volume might discourage some though they are worth it, and once again, Norbecks is free.
Finally, the idea of doing whatever you feel like this year is great but might not fly in the various sessions. By yourself or in a performing group, as Peter pointed out, is probably where you make the most musical renderings ultimately but the stated goal of the thread was to drop into a session somewhere and fit in.
Headline: Mr. Ed found flogged to death (details at 11).
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-28 00:18 ]</font>
My point remains that there are some nearly standard places where ornaments occur based on multiple versions I have heard and its a disservice to not represent them accurately. I think Norbecks does the best job while many tunebooks vary wildly. I had also pointed out that tunebooks provide new lesser-known things to play but I was referring to session tunes, that smaller body of commonly-played regulars.
Some ornaments are so fundamental to the tune that to omit them changes the tune too much. The very first note of Kesh is an example. I have seen it as a dotted quarter, a roll, or three eighths (gf#g). If you go to Norbecks, you will find a dotted quarter with a roll over the top.I haven't heard a version of Kesh that doesn't start with at least a sense of the dotted quarter or roll feel as opposed to just three notes. But its a big world....
In Norbecks, you have those "bare bones" but you also have a reminder of what you will eventually do and its pretty consistent. I like that. Look at McCulloughs and you will see three eighth notes (gf#g). It doesn't seem to match up with recorded versions very well.. Even a stark beginner can play a dotted quarter then add the roll later (exactly how I learned it). But if he thinks its those three eighth notes, he will not do what most people do PRESUMABLY (and that;s a huge assumption on my part admittedly and I solicited Forum reactions for that reason). That was my point.
That is McCullough's solution and I think its an unfortunate choice because it regularizes jigs into continuous strings of triplets beyond what they already can be without care. Jigs have to be seen as uneven triplets with a forceful onebeat feel (more with singles and slides) with phrases often shaped by deviations from those very triplets via rolls, extra sixteenths, even four figures, otherwise people play em too classical. That first roll in Kesh or even a dotted quarter makes it a completely different piece by opposing the later triplets.I just think beginners deserve a glimpse of what will be rather than to be misled then corrected later. I got really frustrated with sheet music that wasn't on point then discovered Norbecks and wanted to save others this whole process.
I am editing in a note to point out that I wish no disrespect to L.E. McCullough as he is my first "teacher" of whistle via his tutor before I discovered everyone else. He has done wonderful things for whistlers. The premise of the session book though, is "hold your own with other players." I always felt a little funny about that and I wonder if the whole project went askew on a questionable premise (cater to beginners so they'll want it by keeping it simple).
Upon reflection, my point about reels is weakened somewhat because I do notice rolls omitted more. I played along with Virtual Session the other day and found rolls pretty much gone. But it didn't sound that great to me without them. And since Peter pointed out the importance of the Breathnach Vol. 1, I went back to that and looked closer. He does use the shorthand of course but there are more session tunes than I thought. Their Erse titles fooled me and I didn't look close enough! The cover price of over $20 per volume might discourage some though they are worth it, and once again, Norbecks is free.
Finally, the idea of doing whatever you feel like this year is great but might not fly in the various sessions. By yourself or in a performing group, as Peter pointed out, is probably where you make the most musical renderings ultimately but the stated goal of the thread was to drop into a session somewhere and fit in.
Headline: Mr. Ed found flogged to death (details at 11).
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-05-28 00:18 ]</font>
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Caj
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Hi,
One other issue regarding ornaments in sheet music: different instruments can employ different kinds of ornaments. Some ornaments are simply impossible on a whistle, some are a bit ungainly, while some are natural but ungainly on other instruments.
If I see sheet music with ornaments, I'm much more likely to completely replace them when playing the tune on a concertina.
=Caj
One other issue regarding ornaments in sheet music: different instruments can employ different kinds of ornaments. Some ornaments are simply impossible on a whistle, some are a bit ungainly, while some are natural but ungainly on other instruments.
If I see sheet music with ornaments, I'm much more likely to completely replace them when playing the tune on a concertina.
=Caj
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Cayden
Weekenders last offering begs some comments.
I am not completely with him on the example he quotes [starting the Kesh on a roll].
First of all, it was Breandan Breathnach who introduced the half moon mark indicating something was done to the note, varying from the one onstrument to the next, often though by no means necessarily indicating a roll.
There is a strong case to be made for not playing a roll at the start of the Kesh [and similar type jigs at all], personally in that particular situation I have gone out of playing rolls nearly altogether [or certainly in the first round, I may introduce the roll in the second coming as a variation]. I think the rhythm is much stronger when playing the three eights there [giving them their appropriate length in jigs, i.e. the first being the longest, the second the shortest and the last of the three more or less a ‘regular’ eight note]. The approach may vary a bit from one instrument to the next on the pipes I would prefer to play g-a-g for instance. On, let’s say, the concertina it may be different again, I remember one occasion during the concertina concert at last years Willie week where the beautiful Yvonne Griffin played a set of jigs starting with the Rollicking Boys around Tandragee [the Em Joe Burke version] and then going into Willie Clancy’s version of An Buachailin Dreoite. She started the second tune on a series of tapped Gs ; G -G G G A2 G. Now, that really lifted me, it had great rhythmic impact, something the ‘standard’ roll would never had had.
So, while there are places in tunes where rolls are appropriate, I would not recommend thinking of this as ‘standard’ . Look at each tune individually and use whatever suits, quite often leaving them out and playing the notes can have a more significant impact than actually putting them in. Variation is the key to all good music.
Considering jigs as a continious string of triplets is obviously not what weekenders wants but it's definitely worth looking closer at jigplaying and see how life can be brought to the tunes.
I was talking to uilleann piper/maker Geoff Wooff about this at a concert last night, discussing jig playing and attention to detail. Jig playing may seem simple but it is listening to someone’s jig playing that will tell you the kind of player you are listening to [I had just come off the stage and we were listening to Eamonn and Geraldine Cotter, Peadar O Loughlin and Maeve Donelly playing very intricate and subtle music].
Also I can not agree that tunes played at session are necessarily a smaller part of the total body of music. That depends mostly on the common ground those in the session have, and if their repertoire is a limited one, so will that common ground be limited.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-05-25 12:10 ]</font>
I am not completely with him on the example he quotes [starting the Kesh on a roll].
First of all, it was Breandan Breathnach who introduced the half moon mark indicating something was done to the note, varying from the one onstrument to the next, often though by no means necessarily indicating a roll.
There is a strong case to be made for not playing a roll at the start of the Kesh [and similar type jigs at all], personally in that particular situation I have gone out of playing rolls nearly altogether [or certainly in the first round, I may introduce the roll in the second coming as a variation]. I think the rhythm is much stronger when playing the three eights there [giving them their appropriate length in jigs, i.e. the first being the longest, the second the shortest and the last of the three more or less a ‘regular’ eight note]. The approach may vary a bit from one instrument to the next on the pipes I would prefer to play g-a-g for instance. On, let’s say, the concertina it may be different again, I remember one occasion during the concertina concert at last years Willie week where the beautiful Yvonne Griffin played a set of jigs starting with the Rollicking Boys around Tandragee [the Em Joe Burke version] and then going into Willie Clancy’s version of An Buachailin Dreoite. She started the second tune on a series of tapped Gs ; G -G G G A2 G. Now, that really lifted me, it had great rhythmic impact, something the ‘standard’ roll would never had had.
So, while there are places in tunes where rolls are appropriate, I would not recommend thinking of this as ‘standard’ . Look at each tune individually and use whatever suits, quite often leaving them out and playing the notes can have a more significant impact than actually putting them in. Variation is the key to all good music.
Considering jigs as a continious string of triplets is obviously not what weekenders wants but it's definitely worth looking closer at jigplaying and see how life can be brought to the tunes.
I was talking to uilleann piper/maker Geoff Wooff about this at a concert last night, discussing jig playing and attention to detail. Jig playing may seem simple but it is listening to someone’s jig playing that will tell you the kind of player you are listening to [I had just come off the stage and we were listening to Eamonn and Geraldine Cotter, Peadar O Loughlin and Maeve Donelly playing very intricate and subtle music].
Also I can not agree that tunes played at session are necessarily a smaller part of the total body of music. That depends mostly on the common ground those in the session have, and if their repertoire is a limited one, so will that common ground be limited.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-05-25 12:10 ]</font>
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Cayden
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Azalin
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I live in Limerick city center, well not for long... I will try to get my finances back in order in Montreal, and then come back and try to get an appartment in Ennis. Uh, weird story.
Peter (Laban), if you read this, I went to Ennis but Cotter's album launch is on wednesday, it wasnt on saturday... But I had some good fun anyway. I bought the album, which isnt my best type of irish music, especially on piano, but this isnt too bad and it's different...
Peter (Laban), if you read this, I went to Ennis but Cotter's album launch is on wednesday, it wasnt on saturday... But I had some good fun anyway. I bought the album, which isnt my best type of irish music, especially on piano, but this isnt too bad and it's different...
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Cayden
Oops, sorry. I thought I heard on the radio it was on saturday. I heard some tracks of the CD on Clare FM, they went for the overseas market I think [well, the title, something like 'the ancient music of Ireland' is a bit of a give-away there]. If they do their usual stuff like on the Tommy McCarthy concert, with Maeve Donnelly and Peadar O Loughlin on the fiddles they are incredibly good. Both Geraldine and Eamonn come to my 'regular' sometimes and while I am not overly keen on some corners of her pianoplaying Eamonn is an extremely good fluteplayer and a joy to play with.
Hope you had a good time anyway, plenty on in Ennis at the moment, if you like Fleadhs.
Hope you had a good time anyway, plenty on in Ennis at the moment, if you like Fleadhs.
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Mandolingirl
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Hi Weekenders and all,
Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. I hear lots of negative thoughts on using sheet music, and you have many points there, especially about that the traditional music doesn't come alive with sheet music only. But I must say there are many advantages with it and in many cases it's useful and necessary. There are people like myself, who don't live in in Ireland but who still want to learn Irish traditional music.
All people didn't grow up with music or with the traditional music. My family is not a music family at all. I got interested in learning to play when I started listening to bluegrass music. I decided to learn playing a bluegrass instrument, and since my friend played the guitar I decided to try the mandolin.
After a while I got the passion also for Irish music.
I didn't know at all how people usually learn folk music, so I did what people in average do when they learn music, I used sheet music. So that's what I'm used to and it's quite hard to switch from it just like that.
I live in a country where Irish music Cd's or musicians don't grow on trees. I didn't know any tunes or so, just knew I loved the sound of it and I wanted to learn.
I went to Ireland in 1999, went to some jam sessions (just listening), bought some tune books and music CD's to bring home to Sweden.
I started learning the tunes I recognized, that I had heard on tapes, then played through the whole book and learned the tunes I liked the most. Then, if I found those on a CD or tape, I listened to them carefully to hear how other musicians did "my" tunes. I could then get an idea of how they were supposed to sound, if I was right in the timing and so on. I usually learn the tunes by heart.
I listen a lot to Irish music, I've found some at the library and ordered some via Internet.
I've learned to play by ear in bluegrass music but still have to develop those skills for Irish music. Before I've learned that, sheet music is very useful. It can be a very necessary tool to learn songs, it just has to be used right, combined with a lot of listening to CD's with other musicians, and trips to Ireland now and then.
What I want to say is that different ways to learn music may be necessary for different situations. If you start from the beginning to play by ear, fine and good for you, but there are people who switch from one music style to another, or who have no great musical contacts, or like me simply don't think of the possibility to learn play by ear from the beginning (lack of courage or self-confidence, maybe) and even people like us must start somewhere, and then develop the skills from there.
I must say I envy all of you who live in the heart of the Irish music, who have weekly jams to attend, who have musicians everywhere to ask things. I wish I had too. But I won't give up, there is certainly hope.
Keep up the good work, folks.
Love to all,
Susanne
Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. I hear lots of negative thoughts on using sheet music, and you have many points there, especially about that the traditional music doesn't come alive with sheet music only. But I must say there are many advantages with it and in many cases it's useful and necessary. There are people like myself, who don't live in in Ireland but who still want to learn Irish traditional music.
All people didn't grow up with music or with the traditional music. My family is not a music family at all. I got interested in learning to play when I started listening to bluegrass music. I decided to learn playing a bluegrass instrument, and since my friend played the guitar I decided to try the mandolin.
After a while I got the passion also for Irish music.
I didn't know at all how people usually learn folk music, so I did what people in average do when they learn music, I used sheet music. So that's what I'm used to and it's quite hard to switch from it just like that.
I live in a country where Irish music Cd's or musicians don't grow on trees. I didn't know any tunes or so, just knew I loved the sound of it and I wanted to learn.
I went to Ireland in 1999, went to some jam sessions (just listening), bought some tune books and music CD's to bring home to Sweden.
I started learning the tunes I recognized, that I had heard on tapes, then played through the whole book and learned the tunes I liked the most. Then, if I found those on a CD or tape, I listened to them carefully to hear how other musicians did "my" tunes. I could then get an idea of how they were supposed to sound, if I was right in the timing and so on. I usually learn the tunes by heart.
I listen a lot to Irish music, I've found some at the library and ordered some via Internet.
I've learned to play by ear in bluegrass music but still have to develop those skills for Irish music. Before I've learned that, sheet music is very useful. It can be a very necessary tool to learn songs, it just has to be used right, combined with a lot of listening to CD's with other musicians, and trips to Ireland now and then.
What I want to say is that different ways to learn music may be necessary for different situations. If you start from the beginning to play by ear, fine and good for you, but there are people who switch from one music style to another, or who have no great musical contacts, or like me simply don't think of the possibility to learn play by ear from the beginning (lack of courage or self-confidence, maybe) and even people like us must start somewhere, and then develop the skills from there.
I must say I envy all of you who live in the heart of the Irish music, who have weekly jams to attend, who have musicians everywhere to ask things. I wish I had too. But I won't give up, there is certainly hope.
Keep up the good work, folks.
Love to all,
Susanne
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Mandolingirl
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