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Post by Darwin »

jim stone wrote:There;s the objection that the vast majority of mutations are detrimental.
That's true--and may account, in part, for the high miscarriage rate in humans (an average 20-percent noted, perhaps as high as 60-percent, with most occurring in women who don't even realize that they are pregnant).

It's easy enough to spot a fully lethal mutation (one that causes death directly, such as being born without a stomach). It's much more difficult to spot neutral mutations.

However, neutral--or even slightly detrimental--mutations can become favorable when conditions change. The classic example is the British peppered moth (Biston betularia). This moth was generallywell-camoflaged on light tree bark, but there were constant mutations leading to some darker-than-normal individuals that were not as well-camoflaged. Some of the darker moths were spotted by birds and eaten (at a greater rate than the lighter moths). Some managed to survive.

As pollution due to factory soot increased in the early 1800s, the trees in the Birmingham area were darkened with soot. As a result, the normal light-colored moths began to stand out, making them easy prey for birds, while the situation of the darker moths became safer. Over many years, the proportion of dark moths became very high, while the light moths became rare (but never totally extinct).

The story doesn't end there, though. As the factory pollution was cleaned up, the situation was again reversed, and the light moths prospered again, while the dark ones once more began to become rare.

Try this link to the html version of a PDF file, by Bruce S. Grant to see the kind of evidence and reasoning involved. While creationists have attacked the legitimacy of the peppered moth example by questioning a particular set of experiments performed by H.B.D Kettlewell in the '50s, note the following:

"Textbook accounts of industrial melanism too often dwell in the past. They begin with
pre-industrial England and end with Kettlewell. As a footnote they might add that melanism has
been on the decline in recent years following clean air legislation. Yet, it is the record of the
decline that is by far the strongest. During the last century and the early part of this one few
people kept records about morph frequencies, so our picture of the rise and spread of melanism is
sketchy. Documentation for the decline in melanic frequencies is vastly more detailed (e.g.,
Clarke et al. 1994, Cook et al. 1999, Grant et al. 1996, 1998, Mani and Majerus 1993, West
1994). No other evolutionary force can explain the direction, velocity and the magnitude of the
changes except natural selection. That these changes have occurred in parallel fashion in two
directions, on two widely separated continents, in concert with changes in industrial practices
suggests the phenomenon was named well. The interpretation that visual predation is a likely
driving force is supported by experiment and is parsimonious given what has been so well
established about crypsis in other insects. Majerus allows that the basic story is more
complicated than general accounts reveal, but it is also true that none of the complications so far
identified have challenged the role assigned to selective predation as the primary explanation for
industrial melanism in peppered moths. Opinions differ about the relative importance of
migration and other forms of selection. It's essential to define the problems, to question
assumptions, and to challenge dogma. This is the norm in all active fields of research. Majerus
has succeeded admirably in communicating this excitement to the reader. I would add this: Even
if all of the experiments relating to melanism in peppered moths were jettisoned, we would still
possess the most massive data set on record documenting what Sewall Wright (1978) called
'…the clearest case in which a conspicuous evolutionary process has been actually observed.'"

The point of all this is that, with the exception of fully lethal mutations, it is impossible to judge whether any particular mutation will end up being favorable or detrimental in the long run.
What's needed for the emergence of species with increasingly complex features, are lots of beneficial mutations.
But, of course, speciation has nothing whatsoever to do with "increasingly complex features". Speciation could just as readily involve a decrease in complexity--or none at all. Speciation is about nothing more than changes in the selection of reproductive partners.

But once speciation occurs, each species is on its own evolutionary track, and there is nothing to hold back divergence. In contrast, again using dogs as an example, the differences found in any particular individual or small group of closely related individuals can be submerged in the overall gene pool and never have any serious effect on survival of a population. If a litter of striped cocker spaniels were to be born one day, the chances of that mutation becoming common (without human intervention) is low. But in a small reproductively isolated population, it might become the norm within a couple of generations, depending only on how it affected--or failed to affect--fitness for the current environment of that population.
ID maintains that random mutation can't do it, because the probabilities of this happening at random are too low--and of course it would have to happen not just once or twice, but continually.
Yet random mutation has produced a vast variety of dogs--mostly within just a couple of thousand years. (Dog breeders can't breed for a characteristic that never occurs.) And, as my example of the Mexican Hairless and the St. Bernard shows, that variety is already sufficient for the beginning of speciation.

You'd think that "intelligent" design on the part of an omipotent deity could come up with better designs than the ones we're stuck with now. If an engineering firm had designed my body, I think I'd ask for my money back. No need to even mention my wife, 5'2", 75 pounds, half-paralyzed, in almost constant pain, barely able to swallow, with a 10-inch bed sore, memory loss, and dementia. Who would purposefully create a body prone to such failure?

(By the way, if 60 percent of all human fetuses are miscarried, then do their souls just get to go directly to Heaven without all this free will and original sin nonsense that the remaining 40 percent of us have to put up with? It hardly seems fair, does it?)
Mike Wright

"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
 --Goethe
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Post by Walden »

Darwin wrote: (By the way, if 60 percent of all human fetuses are miscarried, then do their souls just get to go directly to Heaven without all this free will and original sin nonsense that the remaining 40 percent of us have to put up with? It hardly seems fair, does it?)
They bear the stain of original sin, though Christ is capable of washing it away.
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Post by jim stone »

Darwin wrote:
jim stone wrote:There;s the objection that the vast majority of mutations are detrimental.
That's true--and may account, in part, for the high miscarriage rate in humans (an average 20-percent noted, perhaps as high as 60-percent, with most occurring in women who don't even realize that they are pregnant).

It's easy enough to spot a fully lethal mutation (one that causes death directly, such as being born without a stomach). It's much more difficult to spot neutral mutations.

However, neutral--or even slightly detrimental--mutations can become favorable when conditions change. The classic example is the British peppered moth (Biston betularia). This moth was generallywell-camoflaged on light tree bark, but there were constant mutations leading to some darker-than-normal individuals that were not as well-camoflaged. Some of the darker moths were spotted by birds and eaten (at a greater rate than the lighter moths). Some managed to survive.

As pollution due to factory soot increased in the early 1800s, the trees in the Birmingham area were darkened with soot. As a result, the normal light-colored moths began to stand out, making them easy prey for birds, while the situation of the darker moths became safer. Over many years, the proportion of dark moths became very high, while the light moths became rare (but never totally extinct).

The story doesn't end there, though. As the factory pollution was cleaned up, the situation was again reversed, and the light moths prospered again, while the dark ones once more began to become rare.

Try this link to the html version of a PDF file, by Bruce S. Grant to see the kind of evidence and reasoning involved. While creationists have attacked the legitimacy of the peppered moth example by questioning a particular set of experiments performed by H.B.D Kettlewell in the '50s, note the following:

"Textbook accounts of industrial melanism too often dwell in the past. They begin with
pre-industrial England and end with Kettlewell. As a footnote they might add that melanism has
been on the decline in recent years following clean air legislation. Yet, it is the record of the
decline that is by far the strongest. During the last century and the early part of this one few
people kept records about morph frequencies, so our picture of the rise and spread of melanism is
sketchy. Documentation for the decline in melanic frequencies is vastly more detailed (e.g.,
Clarke et al. 1994, Cook et al. 1999, Grant et al. 1996, 1998, Mani and Majerus 1993, West
1994). No other evolutionary force can explain the direction, velocity and the magnitude of the
changes except natural selection. That these changes have occurred in parallel fashion in two
directions, on two widely separated continents, in concert with changes in industrial practices
suggests the phenomenon was named well. The interpretation that visual predation is a likely
driving force is supported by experiment and is parsimonious given what has been so well
established about crypsis in other insects. Majerus allows that the basic story is more
complicated than general accounts reveal, but it is also true that none of the complications so far
identified have challenged the role assigned to selective predation as the primary explanation for
industrial melanism in peppered moths. Opinions differ about the relative importance of
migration and other forms of selection. It's essential to define the problems, to question
assumptions, and to challenge dogma. This is the norm in all active fields of research. Majerus
has succeeded admirably in communicating this excitement to the reader. I would add this: Even
if all of the experiments relating to melanism in peppered moths were jettisoned, we would still
possess the most massive data set on record documenting what Sewall Wright (1978) called
'…the clearest case in which a conspicuous evolutionary process has been actually observed.'"

The point of all this is that, with the exception of fully lethal mutations, it is impossible to judge whether any particular mutation will end up being favorable or detrimental in the long run.
What's needed for the emergence of species with increasingly complex features, are lots of beneficial mutations.
But, of course, speciation has nothing whatsoever to do with "increasingly complex features". Speciation could just as readily involve a decrease in complexity--or none at all. Speciation is about nothing more than changes in the selection of reproductive partners.

But once speciation occurs, each species is on its own evolutionary track, and there is nothing to hold back divergence. In contrast, again using dogs as an example, the differences found in any particular individual or small group of closely related individuals can be submerged in the overall gene pool and never have any serious effect on survival of a population. If a litter of striped cocker spaniels were to be born one day, the chances of that mutation becoming common (without human intervention) is low. But in a small reproductively isolated population, it might become the norm within a couple of generations, depending only on how it affected--or failed to affect--fitness for the current environment of that population.
ID maintains that random mutation can't do it, because the probabilities of this happening at random are too low--and of course it would have to happen not just once or twice, but continually.
Yet random mutation has produced a vast variety of dogs--mostly within just a couple of thousand years. (Dog breeders can't breed for a characteristic that never occurs.) And, as my example of the Mexican Hairless and the St. Bernard shows, that variety is already sufficient for the beginning of speciation.

You'd think that "intelligent" design on the part of an omipotent deity could come up with better designs than the ones we're stuck with now. If an engineering firm had designed my body, I think I'd ask for my money back. No need to even mention my wife, 5'2", 75 pounds, half-paralyzed, in almost constant pain, barely able to swallow, with a 10-inch bed sore, memory loss, and dementia. Who would purposefully create a body prone to such failure?

(By the way, if 60 percent of all human fetuses are miscarried, then do their souls just get to go directly to Heaven without all this free will and original sin nonsense that the remaining 40 percent of us have to put up with? It hardly seems fair, does it?)
Once again, ID accepts your point about natural selection
affecting phenotypes and also your point that it can explain
some speciation. All concerned agree that random
mutation can make a difference. They accept most of what
you say here. ID's problem is with speciation with
increasingly complex features, for the reasons I gave
earlier. Not enough beneficial mutations are produced randomly
to produce the complexity that in fact arises in the time
frame that evolutionary biologists suppose--I gave a synopsis
of the arguments above.

The various dogs you mention belong
to the same species, as you know, and ID theorists would probably
say that the differences don't involve increased complexity--principally
differences in size, shape of face, color and so on. Again, these
people agree with you that random mutations can make
the differences to which you refer in dogs.

There is nothing about an omnipotent deity or an omniscient
diety (or any deity) in intelligent design. There are people
who accept ID who utterly reject the Bible. Personally I
hope ID is false, for I do not like to contemplate
the nature of the intelligence (or intelligences) that
created living things. It's no part of ID that
the designer(s) did a great job or care about
us terribly or that we aren't part of an experiment.
Obviously plenty of people who
accept ID accept theistic religion, but that simply
isn't part of ID proper. ID isn't Creationism,
which IS committed to a Biblical account.
Creationism entails ID, but not vice versa.
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Post by Lorenzo »

Darwin wrote:(By the way, if 60 percent of all human fetuses are miscarried, then do their souls just get to go directly to Heaven without all this free will and original sin nonsense that the remaining 40 percent of us have to put up with? It hardly seems fair, does it?)
That was too good! I like the way your mind works.
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Post by Wombat »

jim stone wrote:
Once again, ID accepts your point about natural selection
affecting phenotypes and also your point that it can explain
some speciation. All concerned agree that random
mutation can make a difference. They accept most of what
you say here. ID's problem is with speciation with
increasingly complex features, for the reasons I gave
earlier. Not enough beneficial mutations are produced randomly
to produce the complexity that in fact arises in the time
frame that evolutionary biologists suppose--I gave a synopsis
of the arguments above.
................
There is nothing about an omnipotent deity or an omniscient
diety (or any deity) in intelligent design. There are people
who accept ID who utterly reject the Bible. Personally I
hope ID is false, for I do not like to contemplate
the nature of the intelligence (or intelligences) that
created living things. It's no part of ID that
the designer(s) did a great job or care about
us terribly or that we aren't part of an experiment.
Obviously plenty of people who
accept ID accept theistic religion, but that simply
isn't part of ID proper. ID isn't Creationism,
which IS committed to a Biblical account.
Creationism entails ID, but not vice versa.
You've got me completely confused about this postion, Jim. From what you say about it, it looks like an obvious non-starter but if it is alive and well in the philosophy literature it can't be as bad as it looks.

You make it sounnd as though every time concrete evidence for evolution through natural selection comes in, the adherents of ID can concede it without damage to their position. This suggests that it is somehow immune to falsification which in turn suggests that it is a purely metaphyscial thesis rather than a scientific one. Let me ask some questions which might help clear up this mystification I'm feeling.

ENS (evolution through natural selection) postulates only one mechanism of evolution while ID postulates a second mechanism at least. How could it remain a genuine contender no matter how much detail comes in supporting ENS?

Does it postulate a specific mechanism for selection or just hold that there is one? If the latter, it doesn't look genuinely scientific. If the former, why don't you tell us what that mechanism is? The reason 'God did it' isn't a genuinely scientific hypothesis is that it does no differential explanation. If true it would explain anything whatsoever. It therefore can't explain why things are precisely as they are and not some other way. So the hypothesis had better not be that there is some intelligent design, we know not what. (This, by the way, is why it is possible to hold both that ENS is true and that God designed thigns that way; the latter explanation isn't pretending to be scientific.)

You talk about explaining complexity but don't address Mike's main objection to that strategy. He pointed out that most dramatic change between species can take place after speciation. It doesn't take much genetic change to bring about reproductive isolation and once that has been achieved the dramatic changes can slowly follow.

When you speak of dramatic increase in complexity you must mean in phenotypes I take it. Now I don't grasp why you think this couldn't be the result of a relatively small number of changes to the gene pool. I suspect that adherents of this theory are thinking mainly of monogenic traits. For polygenic traits, I simply fail to see why small differences in genotypes can't lead to large differences in phenotypes in much the same way that a dot matrix image of, say, Stalin, can be turned into a dot matrix representation of, say, Mother Theresa, with only a very small number of changes to the pattern of dots. Once you realise this, the supposed problem simply goes away.

The idea of a kind of mixed theory just seems loony to me. The huge difference we get with Darwin is a move from essentialist thinking to population thinking. (Mayr is especially lucid in explaining this.) To be as flexible as you paint it, ID would have to have abandoned essentialism. I am therefore at a complete loss to imagine what underlying picture of the universe it could be presenting.
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Post by Bloomfield »

It's too bad this thread died. It was just getting interesting. =)
It’s also hard to view it as a real research program. Though people often picture science as a collection of clever theories, scientists are generally staunch pragmatists: to scientists, a good theory is one that inspires new experiments and provides unexpected insights into familiar phenomena. By this standard, Darwinism is one of the best theories in the history of science: it has produced countless important experiments (let’s re-create a natural species in the lab—yes, that’s been done) and sudden insight into once puzzling patterns (that’s why there are no native land mammals on oceanic islands). In the nearly ten years since the publication of Behe’s book, by contrast, I.D. has inspired no nontrivial experiments and has provided no surprising insights into biology. As the years pass, intelligent design looks less and less like the science it claimed to be and more and more like an extended exercise in polemics.
That a bit by the biologist Allen Orr, who is taking issue with Behe and Dembski, I.D.'s most visible proponents. Here is the complete piece form the New Yorker.
/Bloomfield
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Post by I.D.10-t »

Bloomfield wrote:
by contrast, I.D. has inspired no nontrivial experiments and has provided no surprising insights into biology.
Man I hate it when people shorten my name! I thought that every one was talking about me when I read that. That and when Sigman Freud is being discussed.
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Post by BrassBlower »

missy wrote:American Chemical Society motto:

"Better Living Through Chemistry!"

Missy
Sounds like a battle cry from the sixties to me! :P
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Post by Walden »

BrassBlower wrote:
missy wrote:American Chemical Society motto:

"Better Living Through Chemistry!"

Missy
Sounds like a battle cry from the sixties to me! :P
Sounds like a Garrison Keillor slogan to me.
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Post by emmline »

It's also the adopted slogan of my sister-in-law who feels that SSRIs have been extremely helpful to her.
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Post by Nanohedron »

BrassBlower wrote:
missy wrote:American Chemical Society motto:

"Better Living Through Chemistry!"

Missy
Sounds like a battle cry from the sixties to me! :P
Actually, it was, and in the 70s and 80s, too. Probably still is in some circles. :wink:
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Post by dubhlinn »

Nanohedron wrote:
BrassBlower wrote:
missy wrote:American Chemical Society motto:

"Better Living Through Chemistry!"

Missy
Sounds like a battle cry from the sixties to me! :P
Actually, it was, and in the 70s and 80s, too. Probably still is in some circles. :wink:

:wink:

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Post by Random notes »

Trad-A-Non wrote:My own sentiments are these, for what they are worth: Science and religion occupy separate spheres, and attempts to mix them are foolish at best. The religionist makes a huge mistake when he puts on a lab coat and tries to find his religion in a test tube. Similarly, the scientist blunders spectacularly when he dons the cope and mitre and starts to organize an Inquisition. Both err in the attempt to force their opinions on others by law.
I have avoided this discussion because I tend to get passionate and obnoxious, flinging expletives like "Tosh!" and "Rubbish!" hither and yon, and would not like to be thought ill mannered by the gentle people on this forum. I shall have a go, however, because the philosophies of science and knowledge are dear to me and I may have something to offer.

Trad-A-Non has hit on the essence of the argument: science and religion are incommensurate epistemologies. They answer the question, "How do you know" in ways so totally different that there is no common ground for discussion.

Lightning, once attributed to Zeus and now relegated to mere meteorological phenomenon, is still not completely understood. The idea that dust particles and water droplets moving through the atmosphere create charge seperation is well known, but the voltage created in this model is nowhere near sufficient to explain what triggers the cascade that creates the lightning bolt. If anyone should suggest that we therefore accept that the will of Zeus is the trigger he is not likely to be taken seriously. We can accept that the model is incomplete and that scientific study will one day explain the phenomenon of lightning without recourse to divine intervention.

Image


This brings us to an assumption critical to scientific inquiry:

Assume that there is no god.

This does not mean that there is no god, or that scientists are forbidden from believing in god, or even that god has had no role in any events ever. It merely means that in a scientific inquiry the god hypothesis is not permitted.

What does this mean for ID? It means that as a scientific hypothesis, it is not acceptable. A scientist cannot accept that any aspect of evolution is a product of divine intervention simply because such acceptance would terminate scientific inquiry.

Again, this does not mean that there is no role for god in evolution or prebiotic evolution or anything else that has happened since or before the origin of the universe. Just that he/she/it must wait outside the door of the lab while science is going on.

I have read some of Behe but haven't the patience to slog through much of his sloppy reasoning. I believe that his understanding is shallow and/or he is intellectually dishonest. His arguments were disposed of long ago but he is trying to pass off old wine in new bottles. Tosh and rubbish!

Roger
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Post by jsluder »

Random notes wrote:Image
Excellent (and quite reasonable) response, Roger. And I've always loved that cartoon. It reminds me of a professor I had in college (for an Electromagnetic Fields class) who was fond of replacing several vital steps in a proof with the statement, "It's intuitively obvious that..."
Giles: "We few, we happy few."
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Post by izzarina »

Darwin wrote:(By the way, if 60 percent of all human fetuses are miscarried, then do their souls just get to go directly to Heaven without all this free will and original sin nonsense that the remaining 40 percent of us have to put up with? It hardly seems fair, does it?)
The answer to this just depends on whom you are talking to.
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