Advice wanted on miking / mixing whistles in a band

[StevieJ]

After commenting in Jerry's Mellow Dog thread on the inherent huge disparity between the volume of whistles at the top and bottom of their range, and how for me this only becomes a bit of a pain in a band situation, I'd like to ask if anybody has any technical solutions to the problem.

I play in a dance band along with colleagues who play flute, fiddle, banjo and piano. Most of the time I play whistle on top of all this. After listening to some recordings I made straight from the mixing board at a recent gig, I am starting to cringe.

It's very hard to get a satisfactory balance between the whistle and all the other instruments. Just like early Chieftains recordings, the whistle pretty well disappears altogether in the low parts of tunes. But in the high parts it not only pops up out of nowhere like Sean Potts but it tends to dominate completely, and worse, to bury the lyrical playing of our esteemed fluter.

For a couple of gigs I tried moving back from the mike in the high parts of tunes but the trouble is I soon forget about it. And anyway it doesn't strike me as a very effective solution because it's pretty hard to know how much you are laying back, and many tunes zoom in and out of the high register so quickly that your neck can't keep up.

So - is there some kind of electronic gizmo I could run my mike through on the way to the mixing console that could compensate for these differences, or limit maximum volume, without garbling the natural sound of the whistle? Or has anyone any other ideas?

Steve

PS I'm not looking for advice on what whistle to buy, nor for what instrument to switch to, thanks all the same!

[Wanderer]

I know that many bands use something called a compressor to handle this effect...I've never tried it with a whistle..about the time I started seriously thinking about it, I moved to Dallas, and sold most of my band gear.

Here's a page that describes a variety of gizmos that can be used to control gain:

http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp045.htm

I know that when I'm recording a whistle solo for my website (though not for reviews), I now use Audacity's software compressor to even out the two octaves a bit. This obviously wouldn't work on a pre-recorded full ensemble..you're definitely needing a pre-amp gizmo that applies just to your instrument

[dfernandez77]

Yeah, what Wanderer said.

Here's the consideration. In studio (or in Sonic Foundry or the like) it's easy to use a compressor or some other type of normalization to bring the dynamics towards a balance. You're dealing with one track and an isolated recording.

Live, especially with microphones, it can be a challenge. Most inexpensive portable compressors are expecting something with a pickup so the signal is fairly isolated. Even a unidirectional microphone will pick up ambient noise, which the compressor might assume should be boosted for balancing the dynamics of the signal. Having said that, I will admit I didn't do any tinkering live to solve this as I only engineered rock bands years ago, no whistles. See if you can borrow a stage unit, maybe even a pedal unit, and do some testing. Let us know how it goes.

Now that raises a follow up question for me. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good unidirectional microphone for a whistle for live play? What's the best way (and best place) to mic a whistle for live play? Any feedback on using a condenser mic in studio for a whistle?

[barbuck]

Our band plays fairly small venues, mostly pubs. I was using a dynamic mic (Shure PG57) but got tired of having to be right on top of it. Switched to a (relatively inexpensive) PG81 condenser & have been satisfied. I still move in closer on lower parts & away for high.

Can't comment on effectiveness in studio.

[Wombat]

I record with a good quality condensor mic and stand back a bit from it. I haven't had really serious balance problems but I pick well-balanced whistles to start with and would use stereo panning to help separation in the muddy parts. As for live playing, I've never tried your experiment. Ouch!

I'd be a bit wary of using heavy compression. Overdone on drums it gets a lovely 60s psychedelic effect.

One thing worth considering is equalisation. Give the low and high mids a really heavy boost. Roll off the high frequencies quite a bit. It would be nice to get an equaliser that allowed you to isolate the 1st and 2nd octave notes for separate treatment then play about with equalisation in each range until you have the balance you want. But rolling back the highs in the top octave and boosting the whole of the bottom octave would do it I think. If I had a problem recording that's how I'd go about it.

[dfernandez77]

Doh!

Of course, EQ!

Sounds worth trying. Low harmonics in the second octave would be more noticable - but probably not an issue.

[dlovrien]

I use a combination pre-amp/compressor called an ART Tube PAC that I bought off eBay for well under $100. My volume problem is compounded by the fact I play sax, high whistle and low whistle into the same mike. The compressor evens things out, and the pre-amp boosts the output signal and warms the sound up a bit. The unit has worked well in pub settings.

I wish I had the same luck with my reverb unit. I bought a used NanoVerb and it is either bad or just can't handle much signal before distorting.

[John S]

This is a big problem when micing Whistles.

To get round the spill problem I've used small tie-clip type electret mics mounted on the front of the wind way looking down at the Fipple.

The other alternative,

But your not going to like it,

No really, you’re not going to like it,

Is to play you’re tunes on a Recorder.

See I told you wouldn't like it.

I switched to playing Recorder in my Ceolidh Band and it's a lot easier to mic as there is not such a large volume disparity between octaves.

While I'm here I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, so, I can recommend the best cheap plastic recorder for trad music I've come across which is below.
http://www.lma.sageweb.co.uk/recorderscatalog.htm

These Recorders have by far the best tone (more whistle like) and intonation then any of the Yamaha, Aulos, or other Hornby plastic models, and come in attractive see-through colours to really wind up the "stick in the muds".

John S

[StevieJ]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I _did_ say I wasn't looking for suggestions for another instrument to switch to, John.

And I'm looking for solutions for live gigs, not recording. I can't imagine fiddling with the EQ will make much difference, or will it? There aren't any lows to boost in a whistle it seems to me.

The compressor/preamp seems a plausible solution - dlovrien, does the whistle still sound like a whistle through it? How much of a difference does it make to the inaudible lows and the piercing highs? Is the fact that it is a tube device important, do you think?

Thanks
Steve

[Wombat]

And I'm looking for solutions for live gigs, not recording. I can't imagine fiddling with the EQ will make much difference, or will it? There aren't any lows to boost in a whistle it seems to me.

If you have a good EQ it will make a big difference. It can act both as a highly selective tone control and volume boost for certain frequencies. You can in effect make the upper octave less shrill and lower the volume. You can lift the volume of the lower octave. I'm pressed for time now. I'll try to explain in more detail later.

Subtle compression gives a slight warming effect. Drastic compression gives the whole sound the wobblies.

[Byll]

When all of the EQ and compressors have done their best job, the most natural solution will still be a small part of the information contained in your first post. To stay away from electronic modifications of the sound as much as possible, simply acoustically limit and compress your own sound vis-a-vis your distance from the mic. I know it may be difficult to remember to do, but it works and works well...Overall volume of the whistle when doing solo work, or when backing up vocalists can be changed by the same method...

The singers you see eating the mic are those who are using heavy electronic compression...The ones you see physically changing the distance from the mic to their lips are the ones you want to emulate.

For mics in my band, we use Shure Beta 57's in outdoor venues, and different tube condensers indoors, where the tone quality is more important.

Be well.
Byll

[Scott McCallister]

Compression is a funny animal, you need to play with it for a while to get it just right. Most compressors do just that, they compress the signal downward-- louds become soft, softs become very soft. You then need to raise the gain on that signal to a listenable/processable level. If there is any noise on that channel (dirty power, air conditioning, FM bleed, EM induction, wind, stage rumble, etc) it now will also be amplified by raising that gain.

Wombat has a good idea with the EQ but depending on your rig it may not be enough. You could get pretty specific for the individual pitches of your whistle with say a 32 band parametric equalizer with variable Q, but then you are talking about a unit that costs about as much as a set of Uilleann pipes. If you have say a 3 band EQ on your PA (Bass, variable Mid, and High) and have the channel space, you may think about using a combination of compression and this eq but use TWO mics. (preferably same make and model)

On the first mic, roll off all the highs and boost the mids (which would be the lows for a high d whistle). Bass settings on this probably will not affect the sound.

On the second mic, roll off all the mids and boost the highs to about a 75% position. (again bass will not do much for you here) Then rout this signal through a compressor and back into the mix. Now you are only compressing the screamers on a whistle while bumping up the bottom end on the other channel.

Play around with this a bit, and you should be able to find a decent balance.

Of course, your other option is to just get in the habbit of "playing" the Mic and not forgetting to back off it when you go high.

Good Luck,
Scott

[Jeferson]

Steve,

I, too, walk back a bit from the mic when I hit the upper octave. One thing you don't mention is whether you use a monitor or not. I do and I find it helpful, because it plays back the mix to me and if I linger away from the mic when back in the quieter octave, I can no longer hear myself in the monitor. True, it's not the same quality of sound that the audience experiences, but the monitor helps me to hear if the mix is within reason.

Bonne chance!

Jef

[Daniel_Bingamon]

The are microphones for recording flutes that have dual pickups. One goes near the embouchure hole and other goes near the lower end over the toneholes to distribute the sound betters. Maybe something like this would work well for whistles.

[dlovrien]

dlovrien, does the whistle still sound like a whistle through it? How much of a difference does it make to the inaudible lows and the piercing highs? Is the fact that it is a tube device important, do you think?

The pre-amp/compressor improves the sound noticeably in live situations - adds signal power and warms the mids a bit. The boosted mids don't help the high whistle much but they do help the low whistle project more.

That said, Byll's advice is still very important. You have to lean away from the mic a bit when playing above high G once you have good low octave projection you'll be watching the audience covering their ears. It just takes a subtle move of an inch or two to the left or right; cardioid mics drop off very quickly to the sides (which is why they're great for avoiding feedback in noisy rooms).

Fixing the problem with EQ is not a viable option. We're talking about less than half an octave of shrill notes that need to be attenuated. As Scott pointed out, you might be able to find the one slider on an expensive EQ that helps a little, but it depends on the exact frequencies. And you don't want to roll off the highs too much - there are still nice overtones and breath sounds you don't want to lose.