Water Freezes Because God Wants It To

Socializing and general posts on wide-ranging topics. Remember, it's Poststructural!
User avatar
brewerpaul
Posts: 7300
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Contact:

Post by brewerpaul »

Martin Milner wrote:Maybe evolution exists because God created it.
Yeah, what he said..
I don't know if Martin meant this seriously or jokingly, but it's worth considering.
The scientist and doctor in me has studied evolution, biochem and the like and finds them to be superb mechanisms to explain the wonderful diversity of life on this planet. Granted, we don't know all of the details but these theories and principles do very well at accounting for what we see in the natural world.
The moderately religious Jew in me believes that there is "something" out there organizing this nearly miraculous universe. Not some white bearded guy on a heavenly throne saying "Thou shalt" this and "Thou shalt not"that, blasting sinners and rewarding the faithful and all that. More of a general unifying force.... in fact Obiwan Kenobi's explanation of The Force in the very first Star Wars movie comes pretty close to what I feel.
I see absolutely no contradiction between these lines of thought. Why indeed should evolution NOT be the means by which "the force" organizes life? If you really look at the mechanism of evolution, carried out over HUGE spans of time, you'll see an elegant system worthy of any God...and a lot more satisfying to me than some mystical creation via "Let there be...", although the traditional story is a beautiful spiritual metaphor.
Got wood?
http://www.Busmanwhistles.com
Let me custom make one for you!
User avatar
dwinterfield
Posts: 1768
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:46 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Boston

Post by dwinterfield »

brewerpaul wrote:
Martin Milner wrote:Maybe evolution exists because God created it.
Yeah, what he said..
I don't know if Martin meant this seriously or jokingly, but it's worth considering.
The scientist and doctor in me has studied evolution, biochem and the like and finds them to be superb mechanisms to explain the wonderful diversity of life on this planet. Granted, we don't know all of the details but these theories and principles do very well at accounting for what we see in the natural world.
The moderately religious Jew in me believes that there is "something" out there organizing this nearly miraculous universe. Not some white bearded guy on a heavenly throne saying "Thou shalt" this and "Thou shalt not"that, blasting sinners and rewarding the faithful and all that. More of a general unifying force.... in fact Obiwan Kenobi's explanation of The Force in the very first Star Wars movie comes pretty close to what I feel.
I see absolutely no contradiction between these lines of thought. Why indeed should evolution NOT be the means by which "the force" organizes life? If you really look at the mechanism of evolution, carried out over HUGE spans of time, you'll see an elegant system worthy of any God...and a lot more satisfying to me than some mystical creation via "Let there be...", although the traditional story is a beautiful spiritual metaphor.
Makes sense to me. I think the problem that the intelligent design folks have is that they are also religious biblical literalists. When they count up all the "begats" in the OT and multiply by 70, they figure the planet is 5,000 yrs old or so. This doesn't square with the couple of million yrs of elegant natural selection that evolution suggests, so evolution can't be right.
User avatar
missy
Posts: 5833
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:46 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Post by missy »

brewerpaul - I pretty much feel the same way you described......

I think part of the problem is those that "think" like us don't feel the need to constantly talk about it and get publicity. So the extremists - on both sides, get the publicity.

Missy
Missy

"When facts are few, experts are many"

http://www.strothers.com
User avatar
I.D.10-t
Posts: 7660
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:57 am
antispam: No
Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA, Earth

Post by I.D.10-t »

I guess my problem with intelligent design is what does it do for us?

Evolution, even with it's faults, can be tested, makes predictions, and helps us understand why things might change. Intelligent design does not provide any of these things. If intelligent design Is true, then where did the intelligence come from? Did it start from the primordial ooze, or was it created from intelligent design.

Seriously, answer my first question because for me it is the most important one. The rest is just an example of how I think that evolution theories are important.
"Be not deceived by the sweet words of proverbial philosophy. Sugar of lead is a poison."
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

I believe in 6-day creation. I don't usually feel the need to argue it.
Reasonable person
Walden
User avatar
Lorenzo
Posts: 5726
Joined: Fri May 24, 2002 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Oregon, USA

Post by Lorenzo »

There really is no need to argue it.

Any reasonable person who can count, and is willing to do a little research, knows that our best scientists have pulled a couple miles of 5" ice cores out of Greenland's highest 10,000 ft. ice mountain. The annual growth rings in the ice cores are as easy to count as the annual growth rings in a tree. The core samples were carefully drilled from areas where only one melted layer per year exists, not in flatter areas where there could have been several melted layers per year. Scientists can count down a couple thousand years in the cores and test the ash that was collected by the snowflakes. It cross-references perfectly with what historians say about the eruption of that particular mountain. Ash can be positively identified to a particular mountain.

The reason why this is significant is because we can know for sure how long it's been snowing here on planet earth (not the age of the earth). Compare that with the story of creation, and the generations listed elsewhere in the Bible, and there's quite a discrepancy. We know it's been snowing here for anywhere from 198,000 to 215,000 years. I'll take good science and leave the story for purposes moral edification.

So, water was able to freeze alright, before man created God.
Last edited by Lorenzo on Sat May 21, 2005 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
jim stone
Posts: 17192
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

dwinterfield wrote:
brewerpaul wrote:
Martin Milner wrote:Maybe evolution exists because God created it.
Yeah, what he said..
I don't know if Martin meant this seriously or jokingly, but it's worth considering.
The scientist and doctor in me has studied evolution, biochem and the like and finds them to be superb mechanisms to explain the wonderful diversity of life on this planet. Granted, we don't know all of the details but these theories and principles do very well at accounting for what we see in the natural world.
The moderately religious Jew in me believes that there is "something" out there organizing this nearly miraculous universe. Not some white bearded guy on a heavenly throne saying "Thou shalt" this and "Thou shalt not"that, blasting sinners and rewarding the faithful and all that. More of a general unifying force.... in fact Obiwan Kenobi's explanation of The Force in the very first Star Wars movie comes pretty close to what I feel.
I see absolutely no contradiction between these lines of thought. Why indeed should evolution NOT be the means by which "the force" organizes life? If you really look at the mechanism of evolution, carried out over HUGE spans of time, you'll see an elegant system worthy of any God...and a lot more satisfying to me than some mystical creation via "Let there be...", although the traditional story is a beautiful spiritual metaphor.
Makes sense to me. I think the problem that the intelligent design folks have is that they are also religious biblical literalists. When they count up all the "begats" in the OT and multiply by 70, they figure the planet is 5,000 yrs old or so. This doesn't square with the couple of million yrs of elegant natural selection that evolution suggests, so evolution can't be right.
I don;t think this is an accurate account of intelligent design.
A good number of these people are biology profs; also
a good number are not religious biblical literalists. Also a good
number beleive the world is very old indeed. Also a good number
accept that natural selection produces changes in the distribution
of traits in populations.

The essential claim is that evolutionary theory (and associated
mechanistic explanations) cannot account for
two things--the emergence of new species and the emergence
of life itself. They are giving intelligent critiques of evolutionary
theory and pointing out its explanatory weaknesses; (my wife,
who works in philosophy of biology, and is an atheist who
accepts evolution, considers the explanatory weaknesses real).
Also they
are doing a good deal of work involving probabilty theory
and statistics. They argue that random mutation alone, even
given the time frame evolution supposes, couldn't produce
new species--the probabilities are too low.

Increasingly evolutionary biologists are taking these criticisms
seriously and trying to address the alleged problems--
the debate is becoming a serious and fruitful scientific one.
Trad_A_Non
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:42 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: The distant past

Post by Trad_A_Non »

My congratulations to all for engaging in reasonable discussion of a potentially very contentious topic. It speaks very well of you.

My own sentiments are these, for what they are worth: Science and religion occupy separate spheres, and attempts to mix them are foolish at best. The religionist makes a huge mistake when he puts on a lab coat and tries to find his religion in a test tube. Similarly, the scientist blunders spectacularly when he dons the cope and mitre and starts to organize an Inquisition. Both err in the attempt to force their opinions on others by law.

Religion has to do with revealed truth. Science is an attempt to create an internally-consistent model -- one of an infinite number of possible models -- of the universe it can see. These are quite different enterprises. Both very much have their uses, and that science is useful most people understand intuitively. For one thing, it's behind the gadgets we're using to carry on this conversation.

That religion can be useful may not be so obvious, but here is an example: I am most familiar with the Judeo-Christian tradition, and observe -- in this age of enhanced self-esteem, fractured families, recreational drugging, and remarkably hideous sexually-transmitted diseases -- that the Ten Commandments have immense survival value in absolutely Darwinian terms.

There is certainly need and room for both religion and science in the world, and in individuals.
Trad A. Non
User avatar
spittin_in_the_wind
Posts: 1187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Massachusetts

Post by spittin_in_the_wind »

Actually, I don't think that the whole evolution vs. intelligent design debate as it exists right now is about how life started at all. It is about an attempt to get a toehold in the schools for religious education. If that can be accomplished in the teaching of intelligent design, a major barrier between public education and the teaching of religion has been broken down. If intelligent design is allowed, then it opens up the teaching of religious viewpoints as fact in other areas, such as history, social studies, health, etc. It is called a "precedent", and the courts rely very heavily on precedent in determining how a law is enforced. If teaching intelligent design in the public schools is a precedent for enforcing the separation of church and state, the laws are very much loosened up and tilted in favor of allowing religious education in the public (i.e., state-funded) schools. This is why there is such a big controversy. Of course, reasonable people understand that different people can have different viewpoints on how life began and changed through time, and that should be respected. This controversy is not about that. It is an attempt to set the groundwork for a state religion. This is now allowed in our constitution, no matter how badly some people wish it were.

Robin
User avatar
Walden
Chiffmaster General
Posts: 11030
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Location: Coal mining country in the Eastern Oklahoma hills.
Contact:

Post by Walden »

spittin_in_the_wind wrote:This is now allowed in our constitution, no matter how badly some people wish it were.
oooookay
Reasonable person
Walden
User avatar
MarkB
Posts: 2468
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by MarkB »

On the eighth day God kicked back and look upon his creation after putting in 168 hours and no overtime pay. He was satisfied but powerfully thirsty. He reached into the ether of space and pulled out a glass of the Elixir of life, it was a little lifeless..what to do. God noticed that when the earth went into darkness, the waters upon the earth harden and did not flow on upon the earth. He poked at it and at first nothing happen, with a little more sunder the solid water cracked apart and he saw below real water. Not knowing what he exactly had, he scooped some of this stone like water and dropped into his elixir of life and ZANG-ZING! The elixir came to life. It sparkled with life and he sang in great voice singing that it was good.

An angel heard him singing and asked God what and why was he singing and when he went to say it was nice, his tongue was frozen and the angel heard Ice instead of Nice and so it was written, that on the eighth day God said it was Ice.

MarkB
Everybody has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film.
User avatar
Darwin
Posts: 2719
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 2:38 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Contact:

Post by Darwin »

jim stone wrote:The essential claim is that evolutionary theory (and associated mechanistic explanations) cannot account for two things--the emergence of new species and the emergence of life itself.
There's nothing particularly mysterious about th emergence of new species. (Unless you deny that mutations occur, in which case you have to explain why there are so many breeds of dogs.)

In the first place, there's nothing mysterious about species membership. Virtually every biologist now uses Ernst Mayer's definition of a species as a group of individuals who can (and do) interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. All that's needed at the molecular level to produce an individual that doesn't interbreed with its blood relatives is a mutation that affects sexual behavior.

However, the first thing to know is that speciation always involves some kind of reproductive isolation of a portion of an original population. This is most often geographical isolation, but can also be situational. For example, if something happened that caused all dogs to die off except for the Mexican Hairless and the St. Bernard, there's a good chance that size differences alone would lead to reproductive isolation between the two breeds. Then, any mutation leading to a change in germ line genes in either of the two would finalize that isolation, so that even if further mutations led to larger Mexican Hairlesses and to smaller St. Bernards, those two kinds of dogs would no longer be able to produce fertile offspring, so they would then be considered to be new species.

Naturally, geographical isolation is a much more common factor. Plate tectonics has led to some notable examples of the effects of such isolation, such as the differences between Old World monkeys and New World monkeys. If most South American marsupials, except for a few species of possums, hadn't been wiped out by invading placental mammals when North and South America collided, we might see some interesting differences between them and the Australian species.

Anyone who thinks that the question of speciation is just armchair philosophy, unsupported by research, needs to try reading all of the articles cited on this Molecular Ecology site. Note yet another speciation factor subject to mutational changes--sexual selection.

By the way, although I'm not aware of any experiments leading to speciation, there have been experiments involving natural selection. One of the most interesting is the one involving John Endler's guppies, described in Johnathan Weiner's The Beak of the Finch. (And, of course, Weiner's book is one of the premier descriptions of the observation of natural selection over relatively short time periods.)
Also they are doing a good deal of work involving probabilty theory and statistics. They argue that random mutation alone, even given the time frame evolution supposes, couldn't produce new species--the probabilities are too low.
Any links to examples of such statistical studies? It's impossible to argue against them without knowing their content. Meanwhile, I am, as usual, skeptical. I will say that statistics are only predictions based on models. They are not laws. Evelyn Adams won the New Jersey state lottery two years in a row (1985 and 1986). What are the chances against that? (Be careful how you answer.)

The intelligent design folks demand a lot of explicit, detailed proof from the evolutionists. My question is, where is their explicit proof of intelligent design? The best they can do is to show that they don't know enough to be convinced of evolution. As for the explanatory power of evolution by natural selection, it shows up in the details. Every biology-related book I read, from genetics to neuroscience, places its facts in an overall evolutionary framework that is then used to elucidate the relationships among those facts and others. What will "intelligent design" elucidate? What explanatory power does it have? "God made 700,000 kinds of beetles, each unrelated to any of the others. End of story. Move along, nothing to see here."

Also, science demands at least some experimentation and some specific testable predictions. Where are the intelligent design experiments detailed? What specific predictions does it make that can be tested?

If anyone believes that evolutionary theory is not well-supported both by data and by experiment, then they probably just don't read enough of the actual literature. It's easy to confuse "I don't know" with "nobody knows".

(Regarding anti-evolutionists in general, we often see demands to show every single intermediate form in an evolutionary line, but those who claim to be descended directly from Adam and Eve don't seem to be able to show many of their intermediate ancestors at all, and that should surely be a much easier task, given the relatively short time period many of them claim. In fact, the line only has to go back to the Noachian bottleneck, so it's even easier.)
Mike Wright

"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
 --Goethe
User avatar
spittin_in_the_wind
Posts: 1187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:00 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Massachusetts

Post by spittin_in_the_wind »

Walden wrote:
spittin_in_the_wind wrote:This is now allowed in our constitution, no matter how badly some people wish it were.
oooookay
Sorry, that was supposed to be "not"...

Robin
User avatar
brewerpaul
Posts: 7300
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Contact:

Post by brewerpaul »

[quote="jim stone
The essential claim is that evolutionary theory (and associated
mechanistic explanations) cannot account for
two things--the emergence of new species .....[/quote]

I recall one striking example of divergence of species from 'way back in my college days. In a relatively basic biology class we learned that a major distinction between species was the ability or inability of individuals to reproduce. An interesting example of speciation was mentioned regarding a type of bird on the East coast of the US (sorry, I don't recall the exact type). Birds of this species from Maine could easily breed with those from New Hampshire or Mass. Birds from Mass could breed with those from NY and NJ. This pattern continues right down the Eastern seaboard to Florida. This would seem to indicate that they are all the same species, right? The interesting part is that birds from Main and Florida CAN'T interbreed, indicating that they are in fact different species.
This is how evolution explains the origin of species: TINY, seemingly insignificant variations taking place over VERY long times until new species emerge. Really beautiful.
Got wood?
http://www.Busmanwhistles.com
Let me custom make one for you!
jim stone
Posts: 17192
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm

Post by jim stone »

I don't believe in ID, and I don't know how good the arguments
are; but I don't believe they are silly.

There;s the objection that the vast majority of mutations are detrimental.
What's needed for the emergence of species
with increasingly complex features, are lots of beneficial mutations. ID maintains
that random mutation can't do it, because the probabilities of this
happening at random are too low--and of course it would have
to happen not just once or twice, but continually.

Your account explains how one species could split into two--via
geographic isolation, for instance. ID theorists agree with you that there
can be changes in the distribution of traits in a population
due to natural selection. ID would accept your account of new species, I believe.

There's another
kind of speciation where one line changes over time, becomes more complex, until it becomes a new species--their
problem here is that random mutation, given the rate of detrimental
mutation, is unlikely to produce a population that's substantially
different and more complex--not in the time frame that evolutionists
are talking about. If you get new species by a species splitting, therefore,
you still aren't going to get populations that are substantially
different and more complex than the one that split.

What;s central to ID is an analysis of mutation rates, the rate of
detrimental mutation, and the consequent probability that
mutation will enable a species to become something considerably
more complex in the time in which complexity actually emerges.

Sorry, I don't have links to the arguments and can't find them
now--about to hit the road. However there are books now
appearing of discussions between evolutionary and
ID biologists--one was just edited by Michael Ruse.

I do of course agree that evolutionary theory has far more
explanatory power than ID, it's a more worked out theory.
It may be that the principal scientific worth of ID will prove
to be a better understanding of the mechanics of
natural selection; ID appears to be becoming a spur to
improving and refining evolutionary theory.
Post Reply