I've been watching all the discussion here and in our media about politics in America. All this rambling around the world killing people in the name of freedom makes me curious. And I've noted that the concept of freedom is a big part of political jargon in your society. But what is it that you all are really talking about? What is this freedom of yours that is so precious, it justifies just about anything? Of course I'm familiar with some of the discussion that American philosophers have had about the subject in the 20th century, but I'd really like to know what non-philosopher-Americans think about it. I'd be happy if you could share some of your thoughts.
/Arto
Freedom
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Arto_Vallivirta
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missy
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Arto - I can only answer for myself. What follows is NOT a "government" definition, but the definition of someone living daily life in "middle" America.
It's the freedom to come up with my own definition, be able to voice that, be able to vote for those that will futher and uphold my definition (if such run, which doesn't happen too often in my case).
It's the freedom to raise my kids to be happy, self sustaining adults, that can pursue (within reason) any career they desire. The freedom to fight for quality schools, or fight for the opportunity to have a choice of schools.
It's the freedom to believe in any religious thought I want (or none if I so want) and to pursue worship in any way I want (within reason).
Of course, there's a lot more - but those are the main ones I can put words to right now. I may come up with more as others join in.
Missy
It's the freedom to come up with my own definition, be able to voice that, be able to vote for those that will futher and uphold my definition (if such run, which doesn't happen too often in my case).
It's the freedom to raise my kids to be happy, self sustaining adults, that can pursue (within reason) any career they desire. The freedom to fight for quality schools, or fight for the opportunity to have a choice of schools.
It's the freedom to believe in any religious thought I want (or none if I so want) and to pursue worship in any way I want (within reason).
Of course, there's a lot more - but those are the main ones I can put words to right now. I may come up with more as others join in.
Missy
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I.D.10-t
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Freedom to me is...
...with minimum government intervention...
the ability to benefit from my successes, have loss from my failures, and do what ever I want so long as it doesn't harm others.
The government, at most, should be a referee to allow this to happen.
The official government position would be quite different...
Oh, and for some reason I think freedom = France.
...with minimum government intervention...
the ability to benefit from my successes, have loss from my failures, and do what ever I want so long as it doesn't harm others.
The government, at most, should be a referee to allow this to happen.
The official government position would be quite different...
Oh, and for some reason I think freedom = France.
"Be not deceived by the sweet words of proverbial philosophy. Sugar of lead is a poison."
It is that ability, guaranteed to me by the constitution and enforced by the government, if necessary, to conduct my life as I see fit, within, of course, the bounds of moral decency.
No matter what race, gender, religion, or ethnic background I may have, I am equal to everyone else. There is no royalty, no nobility, and no preferred class. I have the same opportunities as everyone else, as do my children and their children, regardless of income, political affiliation, or any factor other than ability.
I am guaranteed the right to believe what I will and to hold any opinion that I will, and to speak about them freely and without fear of retaliation.
I am guaranteed the right to meet with others as I see fit, when and where I see fit, in groups large and small.
I am guaranteed the right to live where I will and how I will, and to move freely throughout the country without restriction or registration.
I am guaranteed the right to choose my own occupation and earn a living as I wish, whatever it may be. Or not earn a living.
I am guaranteed the right to bear arms in defense of myself, my home, and my family, including the right to assemble as a part of a local militia (usually state). I am guaranteed that the armed forces of the federal government will never be used against me.
I am guaranteed that I will never be subjected to forced searches of myself or possessions without good reason, i.e., there is reasonable suspicion thatI have committed a crime.
I am guaranteed the right to participate in government, at all levels, so that my views and desires become known. I am guaranteed the right to choose the individuals who will govern me and to become a governing official, should I so desire.
Should I be arrested for any reason, I am considered innocent until proven guilty, and I cannot be incarcerated without formal cause having been shown. My rights as an accused are protected.
We had been, at one time, a country dominated by another. We were fortunate to have been able to get rid of them--others were not so fortunate--and to prevent incursion from still more countries through the years. We have been a haven for those who were politically or economically or religiously oppressed.
The United States is, consequently, composed of diverse people who did not have the freedoms we enjoy. When you see American enthusiasm for "freedom," and you do not understand where it comes from or what it is about, you have to keep in mind that our people were not always "free." Some, in fact, were very recently not free, as in just a few months or years ago.
They were the oppressed of the world. Finns do not flock here in great numbers because they are not oppressed. Eastern European Jews, Russians, Vietnamese, Chinese, Cubans, and a host of others flocked here because they were oppressed--some in near danger of extermination. Others, like the Irish, came to escape starvation.
Under those circumstances, when you end up in a country which protects you, your family, and your beliefs, your sentiments about "freedom" become very important and you are willing to work to keep that "freedom." This might seem odd to outsiders from older and more established countries with stable political systems, but it's not so odd if you see it on an individual level here.
These freedoms are fragile and easily lost. Those who would take them away are always with us--constantly chipping away at it. Keeping our freedom intact requires constant effort and much of our court system is devoted to it.
Whether you agree with the current administration or not, the basic principles underlying the freedom we hold dear still stand. On a personal level, I feel very strongly about this, to the extent that I once took an oath to defend this country even if it should require loss of my life, and I have never set that oath aside and, without hesitation, would still do it today, solely in the name of freedom.
No matter what race, gender, religion, or ethnic background I may have, I am equal to everyone else. There is no royalty, no nobility, and no preferred class. I have the same opportunities as everyone else, as do my children and their children, regardless of income, political affiliation, or any factor other than ability.
I am guaranteed the right to believe what I will and to hold any opinion that I will, and to speak about them freely and without fear of retaliation.
I am guaranteed the right to meet with others as I see fit, when and where I see fit, in groups large and small.
I am guaranteed the right to live where I will and how I will, and to move freely throughout the country without restriction or registration.
I am guaranteed the right to choose my own occupation and earn a living as I wish, whatever it may be. Or not earn a living.
I am guaranteed the right to bear arms in defense of myself, my home, and my family, including the right to assemble as a part of a local militia (usually state). I am guaranteed that the armed forces of the federal government will never be used against me.
I am guaranteed that I will never be subjected to forced searches of myself or possessions without good reason, i.e., there is reasonable suspicion thatI have committed a crime.
I am guaranteed the right to participate in government, at all levels, so that my views and desires become known. I am guaranteed the right to choose the individuals who will govern me and to become a governing official, should I so desire.
Should I be arrested for any reason, I am considered innocent until proven guilty, and I cannot be incarcerated without formal cause having been shown. My rights as an accused are protected.
We had been, at one time, a country dominated by another. We were fortunate to have been able to get rid of them--others were not so fortunate--and to prevent incursion from still more countries through the years. We have been a haven for those who were politically or economically or religiously oppressed.
The United States is, consequently, composed of diverse people who did not have the freedoms we enjoy. When you see American enthusiasm for "freedom," and you do not understand where it comes from or what it is about, you have to keep in mind that our people were not always "free." Some, in fact, were very recently not free, as in just a few months or years ago.
They were the oppressed of the world. Finns do not flock here in great numbers because they are not oppressed. Eastern European Jews, Russians, Vietnamese, Chinese, Cubans, and a host of others flocked here because they were oppressed--some in near danger of extermination. Others, like the Irish, came to escape starvation.
Under those circumstances, when you end up in a country which protects you, your family, and your beliefs, your sentiments about "freedom" become very important and you are willing to work to keep that "freedom." This might seem odd to outsiders from older and more established countries with stable political systems, but it's not so odd if you see it on an individual level here.
These freedoms are fragile and easily lost. Those who would take them away are always with us--constantly chipping away at it. Keeping our freedom intact requires constant effort and much of our court system is devoted to it.
Whether you agree with the current administration or not, the basic principles underlying the freedom we hold dear still stand. On a personal level, I feel very strongly about this, to the extent that I once took an oath to defend this country even if it should require loss of my life, and I have never set that oath aside and, without hesitation, would still do it today, solely in the name of freedom.
Last edited by Lambchop on Sat May 21, 2005 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chas
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I think the thing that sums up freedom the best is the US Bill of Rights:
http://www.archives.gov/national_archiv ... cript.html
Unfortunately, the populace seems very willing to let all three branches of government erode these freedoms. As Peggy pointed out, freedom is fragile.
http://www.archives.gov/national_archiv ... cript.html
Unfortunately, the populace seems very willing to let all three branches of government erode these freedoms. As Peggy pointed out, freedom is fragile.
Charlie
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Arto_Vallivirta
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So it's about goverment (and other people) intervention.
Peggy (and others), thanks for a great post. There's still one more thing: Is this freedom universal? I mean that is it possible (as it is done) to apply your standard everywhere. At least that's what U.S. government seems to be doing. Should every society be like the U.S? In the U.S. individual comes first. There are cultures and traditions where that isn't the case (not ours anyway
). Society comes first. If your standard of freedom is applied, in these societies people really aren't free. Is it possible that there could be a different concept of freedom that is just as valid? Or could it be that freedom isn't everything?
/Arto
Peggy (and others), thanks for a great post. There's still one more thing: Is this freedom universal? I mean that is it possible (as it is done) to apply your standard everywhere. At least that's what U.S. government seems to be doing. Should every society be like the U.S? In the U.S. individual comes first. There are cultures and traditions where that isn't the case (not ours anyway
). Society comes first. If your standard of freedom is applied, in these societies people really aren't free. Is it possible that there could be a different concept of freedom that is just as valid? Or could it be that freedom isn't everything? /Arto
Arto, you only asked what freedom meant. You didn't ask about the responsibilities to society of the free people.Arto_Vallivirta wrote:So it's about goverment (and other people) intervention.
Peggy (and others), thanks for a great post. There's still one more thing: Is this freedom universal? I mean that is it possible (as it is done) to apply your standard everywhere. At least that's what U.S. government seems to be doing. Should every society be like the U.S? In the U.S. individual comes first. There are cultures and traditions where that isn't the case (not ours anyway
/Arto
I do not think it is accurate to say that the individual comes first here--there is a balance.
Our freedoms exist within the context of our responsibility to society. There is a huge societal burden on everyone. We pay taxes, enact and obey laws, educate children, build roads, provide for national defense, etc.
It's not really the wild west over here, although sometimes we like to give that impression.
Perhaps if you told us what "society comes first" means to you, we could explain in that context.
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I.D.10-t
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Should all countries be like the US? No, if your government is better you will have something that others will emulate. Competition is good!Arto_Vallivirta wrote:Should every society be like the U.S? In the U.S. individual comes first. There are cultures and traditions where that isn't the case (not ours anyway
/Arto
Other forms of freedom could be freedom from fear of health coverage, freedom from responsibility, freedom from worrying about if your local schools can teach your child, etc. People decide which freedoms conflict with which others. In the US we have made choices.
I wish that my freedom to enjoy a public body of water in quiet trumped the freedom of some drunk jerk on a motorboat to make as much noise and stink up the air with gas fumes....
...but I may have issues.
"Be not deceived by the sweet words of proverbial philosophy. Sugar of lead is a poison."
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Cynth
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I don't think the individual comes first. In fact, quite the opposite.
There are definite curbs on our freedoms----there are laws. We have agreed to abide by the law, even if we don't agree with it, or else pay the penalty.
The law, which curbs each individual's freedom, is what allows us to live together. It ideally would allow each person the maximum amount of freedom possible without infringing on the rights of others.
We vote for representatives who make the laws. We have police who enforce the laws. We have judges and juries who determine if the law has really been broken. We have judges who can determine if the law is constitutional.
It seems to me that many countries have this amount of freedom even if the forms of government are different.
There are definite curbs on our freedoms----there are laws. We have agreed to abide by the law, even if we don't agree with it, or else pay the penalty.
The law, which curbs each individual's freedom, is what allows us to live together. It ideally would allow each person the maximum amount of freedom possible without infringing on the rights of others.
We vote for representatives who make the laws. We have police who enforce the laws. We have judges and juries who determine if the law has really been broken. We have judges who can determine if the law is constitutional.
It seems to me that many countries have this amount of freedom even if the forms of government are different.
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emmline
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Despite our political differences, there would be very few people in the U.S. who would be willing to give up their right to choose in exchange for a government that legislated the very ethical, economic, or environmental standards they themselves would prefer.
I wish we were, as a group, less oil-guzzling, less self-righteous, less religiously narrow-minded...and a lot of other stuff...but I still want people to choose to behave sensibly, not to have the behavior imposed. (within the obvious limits that the law is designed to delineate.)
As summarized by this well-know quote which is not by Voltaire:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
(According to the Yahoo answer person: "...But the fact of the matter is, Voltaire didn't pen or utter the sentiment you quote. According to a number of web sites, "The phrase was invented by a later author as an epitome of his attitude.")
I wish we were, as a group, less oil-guzzling, less self-righteous, less religiously narrow-minded...and a lot of other stuff...but I still want people to choose to behave sensibly, not to have the behavior imposed. (within the obvious limits that the law is designed to delineate.)
As summarized by this well-know quote which is not by Voltaire:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
(According to the Yahoo answer person: "...But the fact of the matter is, Voltaire didn't pen or utter the sentiment you quote. According to a number of web sites, "The phrase was invented by a later author as an epitome of his attitude.")
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peeplj
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Freedom is that which gives a person the opportunity to shape and mold his or her own destiny, chose their own beliefs and values, set their own priorities, and decide for themselves how they wish to try to live their life.
The irony is, of course, the U.S. is a strictly conformist nation, and that's never more true than now. Just ask the Dixie Chicks.
Some say freedom is the carrot they hold under the nose of the donkey so he doesn't notice the yoke and the plow. There may be truth to that; having lived in no other country, I have to true standard of comparison.
--James
The irony is, of course, the U.S. is a strictly conformist nation, and that's never more true than now. Just ask the Dixie Chicks.
Some say freedom is the carrot they hold under the nose of the donkey so he doesn't notice the yoke and the plow. There may be truth to that; having lived in no other country, I have to true standard of comparison.
--James