Flute Identification

Pekkos · Post by **Pekkos** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:13 am

Hello

I havn't introduced me here properly, I'm originally a fiddler and swedish bagpiper who started off on a chinese Dice-flute (pitched in A) about a year ago, and continued to a Tipple D at the end of last year. Now I have started to look for a flute with some more possibilities, I am most longing for a F-key, lots of swedish tunes uses it... I have found this one for sale, and I wonder If anyone can recognize it? The seller doesn't know anything about flutes, he only says it has three cracks in it, nothing about stamps, labels etc. To me it looks like german made, but I'm only expert in swedish bagpipes...

Can anyone give some help?

/Anders in Sweden

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:29 am

I'd say it's a German flute, based on the shape of the footjoint keys, which look like those on almost every German flute I've seen (and they are pin-mounted, also typical of German flutes). The barrel joint (the one between the head joint and the middle) is unusual, though...I haven't seen one like that before myself!

The long F key actually looks a little more French style than German to my eye, but I haven't seen a lot of French flutes.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:37 am

Hello Anders!
Nice to see another Swede on the boards. That flute would probably be a hit and miss. Might be quite good, but will probably not play at all without a thorough restoration. Might also heavily be out of tune without tweaking and generally bad quality.
You might be better of getting a flute from a contemporary maker, unfortunately it will probably cost more, especially if you want keys, but it might be worth it.
I recommend (as always) a flute by Michael Cronnolly, M&E flutes. He would make you a great F flute in polymer or wood. His keys (if he wants to fit them to F flutes) are pretty nice and affordable.
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~mandeflutes/
I have no connection with M&E in any way, except I have an M&E flute and love it. Michael is a great fellow to deal with as well, and I'm sure he could work something out for you.

Pekkos · Post by **Pekkos** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:47 am

Hejsan Henke

I might not have been clear, I'm looking for a D flute with a Fnat key, I hven't been missing any other notes on my Tipple.

My swedish bagpipes i D have a right hand thumb hole to play Fnat, but I don't think it would be possible to have that on a flute due to hand position.

Buying a new keyed one is out of the question at the moment due to a very nice musette bechonnet...

best wishes, Anders

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Mon May 16, 2005 8:55 am

That headjoint is very close to the ones made in Austria ("Viennese" flutes: Koch and Ziegler for example). What is strange is that Viennese generally go at least to low B. It doesn't look like a composite though: the rings seem to match.

Interesting, I'd say. But only if it's not too expensive: the small holes will probably not make it a very powerful flute.

I love playing swedish tunes on the flute myself, even if it's in genral quite difficult...

(Edited to correct typos...)

Pekkos · Post by **Pekkos** » Mon May 16, 2005 9:17 am

Interesting, thanks for your input, I won't bid too high on it since it has at least three cracks (that the ignorant seller knows of), of which one is in the head joint.

I must say that most swedish music is easiest on fiddle, since most of the tradition is on fiddle, even though there was some flautists transciribed in southern sweden early 20th century. The swedish bagpipemusic is an even smaller tradition that died out in 1944, two tunes are the only recordings, and I think only 10 bagpipes was preserved...

/Anders

glinjack · Post by **glinjack** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:36 am

hi
the flute has a definate french look and could be a good playing flute if pads and tenon wraps etc are all ok.

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:41 am

A good keyless flute will cross-finger the Fnat well enough. You may have to lip it to bring into tune.

As for the flute in question, it's a coin toss. Repairs will likely be needed after the fact (pinning the cracks, repadding the keys, recorking joints etc). And it may not be very loud for playing with fiddles and pipes. But it will be a less expensive way to get a keyed flute.

Are bands like Väsen and Garmarna very popular in Sweden?

Cheers,
Aaron

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:53 am

This flute has not a "definate french look" at all.

these do:

5 keys / bent G# / small holes...

some french 8 keys (and more);

Note the typical G# again

Pekkos' flut eis absolutely not typical.

I maintain the headjoint looks Viennese, not typical though
The body looks a bit german
the straight G# is not typical

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:07 pm

AaronMalcomb wrote:A good keyless flute will cross-finger the Fnat well enough. You may have to lip it to bring into tune.

Well, I never found an english flute with a correct cross fingered Fnat... What type of flute are you playing?

AaronMalcomb wrote:As for the flute in question, it's a coin toss. Repairs will likely be needed after the fact (pinning the cracks, repadding the keys, recorking joints etc). And it may not be very loud for playing with fiddles and pipes. But it will be a less expensive way to get a keyed flute.

I couldn't agree more. But if it's really inexpensive, it can be real fun to repair it yourself. I repaired the headjoint of an english high pitch, and now it's playing... Not very well actually, but the flute is playable. One day maybe I'll have a new headjoint made for it.

And I love Väsen

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:03 pm

Pekkos wrote:Hejsan Henke

I might not have been clear, I'm looking for a D flute with a Fnat key, I hven't been missing any other notes on my Tipple.

My swedish bagpipes i D have a right hand thumb hole to play Fnat, but I don't think it would be possible to have that on a flute due to hand position.

Buying a new keyed one is out of the question at the moment due to a very nice musette bechonnet...

best wishes, Anders

Uh, I see.
I don't think this flute is the one you're looking for though.
If you can't afford a new flute, you can always work hard on half holing. It is possible, lots of players do it. It's just very difficult.
Buying an unplayable flute is probably not the answer though.
Lycka till.

glinjack · Post by **glinjack** » Mon May 16, 2005 9:56 pm

nice photos of french flutes, the toneholes are very small, i read in a music mag sometime back that most french people have tiny little fingers, and even some of the big french rugby players have tiny little fingers, but even with the small toneholes those flutes have a loud tone, i have played some over the years.

Pekkos · Post by **Pekkos** » Tue May 17, 2005 2:10 am

Are bands like Väsen and Garmarna very popular in Sweden?

I havn't heard anything from Garmanrna in many years, don't even know if they stll exist, but Väsen is still going strong, now back to being a trio again, and they are well known within the subculture of swedish trad.

I promise you all i yon't spend too much on the flute, it's an auction and i will certainly not go over 100€ (with 5 days to go the highest bid is 7€ so I hope it will be cheap...) If I get it i will try to make it playable myself, with some help from all the information in the past threads of this board.

trivsel, Anders

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:04 am

glinjack wrote:nice photos of french flutes, the toneholes are very small, i read in a music mag sometime back that most french people have tiny little fingers, and even some of the big french rugby players have tiny little fingers, but even with the small toneholes those flutes have a loud tone, i have played some over the years.

I played a copy of a Tulou flute made by Claire Soubeyran at the last Musicora festival. A typical french flute with small tone holes just perfect for my tiny little french fingers

The tone was amazingly loud. This could be very close to what french flutes were supposed to be back in the beginning of 19c. Claire makes very good flutes (baroque flutes too), but she charges a lot...

Another special feature of french flutes is the thin wall... That could explain some of the sound specificities. Also the F# is in general terribly flat. The last flute on my previous post is a system "Tulou perfectionné", with a key for correcting the F#. Strange system really: to play an F#, you have to use a key, to play a Fnat too. The only easy F to play is the cross fingered Fnat.

After the death of Tulou, the french Conservatoire decided to use Boehm flutes (made by Lot in particular) It was the end of the french simple system flute.

MarcusR · Post by **MarcusR** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:32 am

Hej Anders!
Välkommen till C&F om ingen sagt det

I assume you are buying this of ebay.de I have bought 6 old German flutes in the past and I have to say it is a bit of a chance.
Usually they are quit cheep and I don’t think that you should pay much for it if you can’t return it or try it.

My experience is, that the ones that look really good on photos and where the seller claim to know nothing (or very little) about the flute are the ones to avoid.

The percentage of flute re-sells are quite high at ebay for a reason.

I paid anything from 30 to 101 EUR for the ones I got. The only one I like and play cost 32 EUR and I got it as spare parts but ended up with a bargain. Of the others one plays in tune but with a week lower register, one is a great and loud player but unfortunately not tuned at 440 Hz, one is a Czech flute with very nice key work but cracked so bad it cant be repaired. The others are even worse. So with this I wanted to say that don’t bid more than you are prepared to lose, you might end up with nothing but spare parts.

There is a 8 key Mollenhauer & So for sale on blocket.se for 500 skr. I don’t know where you live in Sweden but at least you have a chance to try it.

link

Hon som säljer flöjten har bara spradisk tillgång till internet så skicka mig ett PM om du är intresserad så får du hennes mobil nr. Tror att den är kvar.

/MarcusR