rasp wrote:i think that politics and other such hot topics do not belong here even in an off topic place. emotions are too hard to control.
Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?
there are off topic that can be nice but politics is not one of them, though yes, it is off topic in a music forum but it is a hot topic that creates much pain, for some and hate in others.
I'm not really suggesting that you go back and read the political threads, let alone the one very big political thread. But if you did, I think you might be surprised at how many people can express quite strongly held opinions and argue vigorously without descending to flaming or malice. Ascerbic asides aplenty of course. But lots of people here with very different political and social views are very firm friends and that seems to me to be a great strength of this community.
Probably most of us violate the reasonable person principle occasionally. It would be unreasonable not to expect that. Good friends can get quite heated with eachother. But usually we take a break form the board or reconsider our style if we keep getting into trouble or are having a bad run. When something is taken the wrong way, we lose nothing by apologising.
Probably those who violate, or at least push, the reasonable person principle frequently are seen as doing this by most others. As someone who's been around here for quite a long time, I can say that the moderators do seem to let us sort things out for ourselves most of the time. Although maybe nobody is completely happy all the time, it's remarkable how happy most of us are with things most of the time. I think the moderators do a splendid job, even when I disagree with them.
Cranberry wrote:
Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?
there are off topic that can be nice but politics is not one of them, though yes, it is off topic in a music forum but it is a hot topic that creates much pain, for some and hate in others.
I'm not really suggesting that you go back and read the political threads, let alone the one very big political thread. But if you did, I think you might be surprised at how many people can express quite strongly held opinions and argue vigorously without descending to flaming or malice. Ascerbic asides aplenty of course. But lots of people here with very different political and social views are very firm friends and that seems to me to be a great strength of this community.
Probably most of us violate the reasonable person principle occasionally. It would be unreasonable not to expect that. Good friends can get quite heated with eachother. But usually we take a break form the board or reconsider our style if we keep getting into trouble or are having a bad run. When something is taken the wrong way, we lose nothing by apologising.
Probably those who violate, or at least push, the reasonable person principle frequently are seen as doing this by most others. As someone who's been around here for quite a long time, I can say that the moderators do seem to let us sort things out for ourselves most of the time. Although maybe nobody is completely happy all the time, it's remarkable how happy most of us are with things most of the time. I think the moderators do a splendid job, even when I disagree with them.
i understand your point.
what i am saying, is that in the many forums i am or have been on, political and religious topics are banned topics and the atmosphere on them is less likely to become volatile.
in the length of time i have been on this forum, i have seen one segment locked for a bit and the play nice warning several times. i have not seen such a warning on forums where political and religious talk is not allowed.
Last edited by rasp on Sat May 14, 2005 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
rasp wrote:i think that politics and other such hot topics do not belong here even in an off topic place. emotions are too hard to control.
Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?
there are off topic that can be nice but politics is not one of them, though yes, it is off topic in a music forum but it is a hot topic that creates much pain, for some and hate in others.
Everything about a public message board is political -- even if you aren't talking about politics. If you want to ban "politics" you'll be banning 3/4 of the threads. If you don't believe me just take a look at recent events on the pipe and flute threads.
rasp wrote:i have seen one segment locked for a bit and the play nice warning several times. i have not seen such a warning on forums where political and religious talk is not allowed.
It was the pipe forum that was shut down, and someone was locked out over something that happened in the flute forum. My understanding is that politics and religion aren't allowed there. Even though what happened was political, it had nothing to do with politics. I think banning bad manners and abusive remarks is quite enough really or you'll be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Cranberry wrote:
Making any topic "off topic" in an "off topic" forum means it's allowed, though, no?
there are off topic that can be nice but politics is not one of them, though yes, it is off topic in a music forum but it is a hot topic that creates much pain, for some and hate in others.
Everything about a public message board is political -- even if you aren't talking about politics. If you want to ban "politics" you'll be banning 3/4 of the threads. If you don't believe me just take a look at recent events on the pipe and flute threads.
rasp wrote:i have seen one segment locked for a bit and the play nice warning several times. i have not seen such a warning on forums where political and religious talk is not allowed.
It was the pipe forum that was shut down, and someone was locked out over something that happened in the flute forum. My understanding is that politics and religion aren't allowed there. Even though what happened was political, it had nothing to do with politics. I think banning bad manners and abusive remarks is quite enough really or you'll be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
i am sorry that i did not elaborate fully. by forum i mean c&f as a whole by other forums i mean others that i have been or am a member of.
because politics and religion are not allowed on the pipe, flute or other sections within c&f, except in the off topic area does not mean the feelings donot overflow into other areas. as you have pointed out they have.
discussions on flutes, whistles pipes and music do not have to be nor should they be turned into a discussion in which one can call political.
rasp wrote:i am sorry that i did not elaborate fully. by forum i mean c&f as a whole by other forums i mean others that i have been or am a member of.
because politics and religion are not allowed on the pipe, flute or other sections within c&f, except in the off topic area does not mean the feelings donot overflow into other areas. as you have pointed out they have.
discussions on flutes, whistles pipes and music do not have to be nor should they be turned into a discussion in which one can call political.
So are you suggesting that because discussions on political or religious issues are allowed in one section -- it causes the ‘political’ problems in other areas designated for other topics? Are you saying that banning political or religious topics will improve everyone's behavior throughout the website?
rasp wrote:i am sorry that i did not elaborate fully. by forum i mean c&f as a whole by other forums i mean others that i have been or am a member of.
because politics and religion are not allowed on the pipe, flute or other sections within c&f, except in the off topic area does not mean the feelings donot overflow into other areas. as you have pointed out they have.
discussions on flutes, whistles pipes and music do not have to be nor should they be turned into a discussion in which one can call political.
So are you suggesting that because discussions on political or religious issues are allowed in one section -- it causes the ‘political’ problems in other areas designated for other topics? Are you saying that banning political or religious topics will improve everyone's behavior throughout the website?
yes, it does flow into other areas. it cannot be helped. it is very clear if one looks. if one does not like your politics ect they certainly are not going to value your opinion on other things.
banning political or religious topics has made on other forums better places to hang out. would it work here, duno, that would depend on whether people were willing to forget others politcal or religious views, that differ from their own and know that the forum is not a place to win nor lose but to share information, opinions and teach.
rasp wrote:i am sorry that i did not elaborate fully. by forum i mean c&f as a whole by other forums i mean others that i have been or am a member of.
because politics and religion are not allowed on the pipe, flute or other sections within c&f, except in the off topic area does not mean the feelings donot overflow into other areas. as you have pointed out they have.
discussions on flutes, whistles pipes and music do not have to be nor should they be turned into a discussion in which one can call political.
So are you suggesting that because discussions on political or religious issues are allowed in one section -- it causes the ‘political’ problems in other areas designated for other topics? Are you saying that banning political or religious topics will improve everyone's behavior throughout the website?
yes, it does flow into other areas. it cannot be helped. it is very clear if one looks. if one does not like your politics ect they certainly are not going to value your opinion on other things.
banning political or religious topics has made on other forums better places to hang out. would it work here, duno, that would depend on whether people were willing to forget others politcal or religious views, that differ from their own and know that the forum is not a place to win nor lose but to share information, opinions and teach.
I, respectfully, disagree. As adults (for the most part) we have the choice to exercise 'self-control' and 'restraint' when confronted by views that are decidedly not our own.... I, for one, love the differences between us all, and believe they should be celebrated... spice of life and all that.
jGilder wrote:
So are you suggesting that because discussions on political or religious issues are allowed in one section -- it causes the ‘political’ problems in other areas designated for other topics? Are you saying that banning political or religious topics will improve everyone's behavior throughout the website?
yes, it does flow into other areas. it cannot be helped. it is very clear if one looks. if one does not like your politics ect they certainly are not going to value your opinion on other things.
banning political or religious topics has made on other forums better places to hang out. would it work here, duno, that would depend on whether people were willing to forget others politcal or religious views, that differ from their own and know that the forum is not a place to win nor lose but to share information, opinions and teach.
I, respectfully, disagree. As adults (for the most part) we have the choice to exercise 'self-control' and 'restraint' when confronted by views that are decidedly not our own.... I, for one, love the differences between us all, and believe they should be celebrated... spice of life and all that.
yes, differences are good, and can be shown in many ways. what i have suggested does not take away from this.
there are reasons why the mentioned topics are not the topics of choice at social gatherings. that is unless the gathering is to discuss said topic.
Thanks for your ideas. I'm not going to ban political posts. I think that they have been confined to the main political thread, plus a few others that have largely been easy to identify. I think that has worked out pretty well. Even if you're right, rasp, in your beliefs that the feelings carry over into other non-political posts, and you may be, I don't think that justifies banning political posts. And, again, the general tone of the board is quite civil, with a very few notable exceptions. That's why, I say again, the implications that I am a heavy-handed and arbitrary censor notwithstanding, moderation has been largely hands-off.
As part of the Civility Drive, I'm insisting people refrain from telling jokes that disparage others. Here's an example of a completely unacceptable joke. If you laugh at it, you're breaking the rules.
Q: What has 422 legs and 19 teeth?
A: The first two rows at an Allman Brothers concert.
I think you might be surprised at how many people can express quite strongly held opinions and argue vigorously without descending to flaming or malice.
I agree that most C&F members are very reasonable, but a few short descents into flaming or a little malice can be overwhelming. It doesn’t take much habanera pepper sauce to ruin the delicate flavors of a meal nor many sex scenes to turn a movie into a lichen flick.
I engage in political debate to persuade but ultimately - by listening to opposing arguments - to look for flaws in my own arguments and to hone and/or change my own positions to be more reasoned. People who are driven by ideological positions that they cannot reasonably support often rely upon flaming and malice, which indicates that their positions are flawed.
Just a few C&F members seem so driven that they have surrendered their ability to listen to a need to repetitiously beat their ideological drum, and a little bit of that, like habanera sauce on a meal, can overwhelm a debate among a small group of people. For me, that takes the enjoyment and benefit out of debate.
