All pitbulls in Denver to be killed.

[missy]

Chris - while not in this area, there are some parts of the US where the license fee is higher for a non- neutered dog than for a neutered one.

And as to "breeders" - my last four dogs have either come from the SPCA ("pure" boxer and dalmation) or rescue societies (there's a great boxer rescue here in Ohio). Yes, you are taking a chance with a rescue dog and it's personality. One of the ones I currently have was evidently beaten quite badly, and I can't trust him around strangers - especially men with deep voices. But I know that, and act accordingly, and other than that, he's a great dog. I just make sure he's put in another room when we have people over, until he can be "introduced" properly. The other is just a big, lovable, doofus - and the two of them together are quite comical, and the best of buddies.

And Cathy - growing up in the country - I can feel for you and the "drop-offs". We had that happen all the time, too. The dogs would often run the sheep, scare the horses, or wind up being hit by cars before we could get them to the pound.

Missy

[Redwolf]

Back when people first started getting freaked out about "pit bulls," there was an article in a paper with several numbered dog pictures, and people were urged to write back identifying the "pit bull." They got lots of letters, but no correct answer, because not one of the pictures was of an American Pit Bull Terrier or an American Staffordshire Terrier. There was, if I recall correctly, a bulldog, a boxer, a bull terrier, a Boston Terrier, a pug, an English Mastiff, a bull mastiff, and several other breeds. Most people couldn't tell a pit bull from a pit viper!

Redwolf

[Scott McCallister]

to be just a little bit of a breed specific thing?

It absolutely is not a breed specific thing. First of all, whether there is even such a breed
as the 'Pit Bull' is a matter of some debate.

I don't think there is any debate. Pit Bull=American Staffordshire Terrier=Amstaff. It has been recognized by the UKC since 1898 and the AKC since 1936 as they were more fussy about the name of the breed. It has a short list of breed confirmations including build, size and coat characteristics. Just in case you don't get what all that means, I have included some pictures here.

Pit Bull


NOT a pit bull


Pit Bull


NOT a pit bull


Pit Bull


NOT a pit bull

Aside from the Terrier/Bulldog crossbreed that makes your basic 'Pit Bull', you've got
people (who actually fight their dogs) breeding in bits of German Shephard or Rottweiler.
Is a Rottweiler/Terrier/Bulldog cross really the same breed as a Terrier/Bulldog cross?
Is it the same breed as a German Shephard/Terrier/Bulldog cross? If I have an AKC
registered Staffordshire Terrier with a lineage of non-fighting, non-aggressive
ancestors, is it still a 'Pit' Bull? If I have a fighting dog rescued and rehabilitated, but
it has no Bulldog ancestery, say a shephard/lab cross... is -it- a Pit Bull? And who's
making these decisions when the police are making the rounds right now? If I thought my
dog was a terrier mutt, and my neighbor called it a pit bull, who's right? Which way are the
police going to act on this, and can I challenge the decision before the animal is slaughtered?

If I take the head off a Barbie doll and stick it on a Ken doll body does it become a Kenbie? If I eat two pineapple jellybellies with one cocoa-nut jellybelly does it really become a pina-colada? :roll: (come on!) The breed is identified easily enough. Smoke and mirrors will not change what it is.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts... everyday would be Christmas!

No. It's nothing to do with the 'breed', in as much as there even -is- a breed. It has to
do with the fact that there are an unfortunately large number of people that train the
dogs to aggressiveness, for 'guard' (aka, intimidating my neighbors) purposes, or for
fighting in the ring. It is these behaviours that should be outlawed, not a particular
phenotype (as I argued above, there -isn't- a fixed genotype involved here!)

The breed exists. And so do the problems with it. This breed's shortcomings are exacerbated by poor ownership. Leaving (even worse preparing/training) any domestic animal in a position where it is unprepared or unable to act as a domestic companion is simply cruel to the animal and dangerous for any who come into contact with it. The sad sorry fact of the matter is that this breed is highly responsive to anti-social training. Much more so than any other breed.

Now, if after all that, you still think that the law is a good one, I suggest that you are
essentially saying that all mid-to-large size dogs of non-pureblood heritage should be put
down, because that's about as much clarity as there is on a what a pit bull is.

So if you say something three times it must be true. (I'm rich, I'm rich, I'm rich.... crud... didn't work for me either) :roll:

What I actually said can be read by all in earlier posts. It has nothing to do with the destruction/banning of other breeds. Simply that this particular breed has some problems that cannot be ignored. And that there is no simple solution for the problem breeders have created when this animal came into existence. The heartache experienced by an owner who has to give up a dog like this can not be measured against the despair of a parent who's child is maimed or killed by such a creature.

[StevieJ]

Steve - I didn't say a vicious gun.....

What I was saying is you make a law against owning a vicious dog, not a law against owning a specific breed of dog only
Just as you make a law against commiting a crime with a gun, you don't make the law against a specific gun only.

My point is that although you are saying the argument is the same in both cases ("just like"), in fact it is the opposite.

You are saying (correct me if I'm misunderstanding you) that it is OK to own guns but not to shoot people (or threaten people) with them.

In other words, in the case of a gun, you wait until someone does something bad with it and then take action against that person.

In the case of a vicious dog, however, you say there should be a law against owning them. In other words, don't wait for something bad to happen before taking action, but ban them.

Yes?

[ChrisA]

I don't think there is any debate. Pit Bull=American Staffordshire Terrier=Amstaff. It has been recognized by the UKC since 1898 and the AKC since 1936 as they were more fussy about the name of the breed. It has a short list of breed confirmations including build, size and coat characteristics. Just in case you don't get what all that means, I have included some pictures here.

Then you've never looked into the matter, and ignored what I said. The AKC will not
recognize as American Staffordshire Terrier's the vast majority of what people
colloquially call 'Pit Bulls'. The American Staffordshire Terrier is a defined lineage that
only includes a small fraction of 'Pit Bulls'. Where the line is is very vague.

Aside from the Terrier/Bulldog crossbreed that makes your basic 'Pit Bull', you've got
people (who actually fight their dogs) breeding in bits of German Shephard or Rottweiler.
Is a Rottweiler/Terrier/Bulldog cross really the same breed as a Terrier/Bulldog cross?
Is it the same breed as a German Shephard/Terrier/Bulldog cross? If I have an AKC
registered Staffordshire Terrier with a lineage of non-fighting, non-aggressive
ancestors, is it still a 'Pit' Bull? If I have a fighting dog rescued and rehabilitated, but
it has no Bulldog ancestery, say a shephard/lab cross... is -it- a Pit Bull? And who's
making these decisions when the police are making the rounds right now? If I thought my
dog was a terrier mutt, and my neighbor called it a pit bull, who's right? Which way are the
police going to act on this, and can I challenge the decision before the animal is slaughtered?

If I take the head off a Barbie doll and stick it on a Ken doll body does it become a Kenbie? If I eat two pineapple jellybellies with one cocoa-nut jellybelly does it really become a pina-colada? :roll: (come on!) The breed is identified easily enough. Smoke and mirrors will not change what it is.

These are not rhetorical questions to the people who's pets are being killed today. I'm not
sure if you're dodging the question or saying 'Yes, yes, those are -all- pitbulls' ?
If you're saying they are all pit bulls, then your 'well defined' American Staffordshire Terrier
has nothing to do with this debate. Of course, more to the point, your well-defined
American Staffordshire Terrier has nothing to do with how the law or the police are
defining 'pit bull'.

The breed exists. And so do the problems with it. This breed's shortcomings are exacerbated by poor ownership. Leaving (even worse preparing/training) any domestic animal in a position where it is unprepared or unable to act as a domestic companion is simply cruel to the animal and dangerous for any who come into contact with it. The sad sorry fact of the matter is that this breed is highly responsive to anti-social training. Much more so than any other breed.

This is simply untrue. The breed is, by nature, very well tempered, better than average.
They are no more responsive to anti-social training than any other dog. They are -stronger-
and -fasters- than most dogs, and so, like Shephards and Rottweilers, popularly chosen
for this training.

What I actually said can be read by all in earlier posts. It has nothing to do with the destruction/banning of other breeds. Simply that this particular breed has some problems that cannot be ignored. And that there is no simple solution for the problem breeders have created when this animal came into existence. The heartache experienced by an owner who has to give up a dog like this can not be measured against the despair of a parent who's child is maimed or killed by such a creature.

You seem to be failing to understand that the vast majority of these dogs that are being
slaughtered today have never harmed anyone. They are being killed for 'looking like' what
people think a pit-bull looks like, regardless of history, temperament, or any actual lineage
relating to the American Staffordshire Terrier. I have no problem whatsover with vicious
animal laws that require putting down an animal for actual violence. I have a problem with
pre-emptively killing vast numbers of animals based on their appearance. It is, simply put,
an unconscionable slaughter of innocent lives.

[Joseph E. Smith]

This is an American Staffordshire Terrier:


This is the American Pit Bull Terrier:


Am Staffs are easily twice the size of a Pit.

[Walden]

Alas, poor Petey.

[cowtime]

Cocker spaniels bite the most? Not from what I found

I got that info from a vet I work with. When I see her next, I'll ask for the data she quoted.

As a veterinary technician, I get bit frequently. To date, never by a pit bull, Rottie or any of the many big dogs we have as patients . But beagles, chi hua huas and other small dogs are where the majority of my bite scars have come from... and cats... but thqat is a whole 'nother story.

I have yet to be bitten by a cocker spaniel.

I was a vet tech for over 13 years. Everyone in the office always dreaded a few breeds in general. I would add that most of these bad temperments are a direct result of the irresponsible breeding of breeds whose popularity at the moment means puppies are easily sold and bad owners.

Those breeds that we had to closely watch out for were -

1. Cocker Spaniel- almost all of the ones we saw were either agressive biters or fear biters- either way, they tried to bite. And when I say Cockers, I mean 40 to 50 lb Cockers. Much larger than what is seen in the show ring. I trust a cocker less than anyother breed.

2. Dachshunds- the general public probably doesn't think of them as biters, but believe me, they are.

3. Toy Poodles, Pomeranians, Chihuahuas,etc. - small breeds who usually are never taught any manners because they are so "cute". Kinda like little spoiled monster kids.

4. Shar-Pei- unpredictable- There is a reason (tempermentally and physically) that these dogs were almost extinct a few years ago. We should not have intervened in this process.

5. Belgian Teurvern- would just as soon bite you as look at you.

6. Labs and Goldens were always "iffy". Again, the breeds are victims of popularity and breeding for the market.

7. Chows and Akitas- breeds that are not naturally outgoing and are unpredictable.

8. Old English Sheepdog- not to be trusted as a rule



Pitt Bulls never once, in all those years ever tried to harm any of the staff. Every one of them were model patients. We did see quite a number of them, and some of them were obviously veterans of the fighting pit. I remember one old fellow who came in who was such a sweetheart I would have taken him home with me. I could not put a finger on him that was not scarred. It bothers me to this day, to think what that dog had endured at the hands of humans, and he still trusted. He was in for a medical illness not for treatment from fighting and behaved perfectly with people. Of course, he had to be isolated from other dogs because of what his owners had made him...

I showed dogs for over 25 years and there were many instances where I witnessed bad behavior in dogs. But never in an Am Staff or Stafforshire.

There are so many posts here that I agree with. I remember the Doberman years of the 70s and how that breed was harmed, saw the first inklings of the Rottweiler taking the Dobie's place as the "tough" dog du jour, and now Pitts, or Am Staffs(American Staffordshire Terriers), and the occasional Staffordshire. If Pitt Bulls are banned, they will just be replaced by another breed that can be made dangerous, because the owners of vicious dogs have some sick need to have such a dog. There are plenty of breeds capable of being the canine equivalent of a loaded gun. These poor excuses of humans will find them if they can't have a Pitt Bull.

I agree with those who say that rather than ban a specific breed, make the concequences of owning a deadly and dangerous canine serious, regardless of the breed. If Denver thinks they've solved this problem by banning Pitt Bulls they know little about canines or humans.

One of my best friends and loyal companions of my childhood was a Pitt Bull. He never bit anyone, lived on our farm for 14 years and loved for kittens to play ON him. This is not a bad breed, but unfortunately, bad people like them.

Oh, and it's true about cats, if they want to get you- they will.

[Charlene]

I recently started working at what is probably the oldest pet store in Spokane, and I was surprised at some of the things I found out.

I thought they got their animals from licensed breeders. Not so. Most of the puppies and kittens that come in are from ordinary people. A lot of the people are from the surrounding neighborhood - which has been going downhill over the years. The store closes at 7 because after that the hookers take over the street and decent people don't want to be in that part of town. The people I have seen coming in to sell their animals mostly look like they belong on Jerry Springer.

We sell a lot of pit bull crosses. They seem like really sweet puppies but you can tell that a lot of the people who buy them are not going to treat them nice. It irritates me to see people coming in around the 1st of the month when the welfare checks come out and pay around $80 for a puppy, usually either in cash or with their debit card. (Although those people are marginally nicer than the ones who come in and buy the big snakes!)

I've also seen people buy puppies and return them within the week. One was returned within 3 days because they were moving and didn't have room in the truck. Isn't this something they should have considered before buying the dog??? I think a lot of this returning has to do with the store policy of giving the money back in cash unless the customer specifically asks for the money to be refunded to his credit card. I think they are using the store as an ATM - buy something on the debit card, return it in a couple of days, get a cash refund, and don't have to pay an ATM fee.

My dog is part chow, part husky, and part German shepard - all dogs on the bad list - but Petey is a sweetheart. He scares some people when he barks because he's big, weighs about 90 pounds, and he sounds mean if he growls. The only person he's ever bitten was me, and that was because I stupidly put my fingers in his mouth when he was still a puppy because I didn't want him chewing on a plastic bottle cap that someone had thrown on the ground, and he decided to take one more good chomp before I took his chew toy away, and my finger was in the way. This big dog is scared of balloons and plastic bags that blow in the wind. Also scared of any open walkway, like an old fashioned heating grate in the floor or open stairs, or a wooden bridge with sizeable gaps between the boards.

I do think 90% of the danger is due to the way people treat their dogs, but pit bulls hang on once they bite, which is what makes them seem worse than the ankle biters.

I don't think I'll be moving to Denver any time soon.

[Redwolf]

I have to tell you, Charlene, that ANY dog you get from a pet store does NOT come from a reputable breeder...even if its supposedly "purebred." Puppy mills and backyard breeders are the kind that sell to pet stores.

I assume you're speaking of Northwest Seed and Pet, yes? They've always carried mongrel puppies from locals, generally with no health check or anything. They've been notorious in Spokane for years, especially during the big parvo outbreaks in the early '80s.

Redwolf

[Dazzle1]

The variation in breeds amazes me the Am Staffordshire terrier is quite different from the Staffordshire Bull Terrier ( pictures by Joseph E Smith), The second picture of a pitbull looks more like a brindled UK Staff though the coat is too dark.
Friends of mine breed Staffies, I think they're great


D

[Flyingcursor]

"God loves a terrier, yes he does! Small, sturdy, bright and true, they give their love to you. God loves a terrier!"

[Redwolf]

The variation in breeds amazes me the Am Staffordshire terrier is quite different from the Staffordshire Bull Terrier ( pictures by Joseph E Smith), The second picture of a pitbull looks more like a brindled UK Staff though the coat is too dark.
Friends of mine breed Staffies, I think they're great


D

American Pit Bull Terriers are larger overall than Staffordshire Bull Terriers...they're higher stationed and they weigh more. But yes, there is a marked resemblence, especially about the head.

Although the AmStaff and the APBT started out as the same breed, they've diverged considerably since the registry split between AKC and UKC. The AKC experimented with registering APBTs a while back, and the physical difference was even more remarkable in the show ring. Even so, the UKC allows cross-registry, so there are dogs that are registered as AmStaffs with the AKC and as APBTs with the UKC.

There are also two similar breeds: The American Bulldog and The Game American Bulldog, which are quite different still. Neither is registered by the AKC, but I believe the UKC registers the American Bulldog.

All these breeds, like their counterparts in the UK, have traditionally been bred to be extremely good natured and friendly with humans (though, like all terriers, they can be nasty with other dogs). It's sad that evil treatment on the part of "tough guys," drug dealers and the like have damaged the breeds' reputation. Hopefully, like the Doberman, once the bad guys have moved their attention to other breeds, these lovely dogs will regain their places in the hearts of Americans.

Redwolf

[Charlene]

I have to tell you, Charlene, that ANY dog you get from a pet store does NOT come from a reputable breeder...even if its supposedly "purebred." Puppy mills and backyard breeders are the kind that sell to pet stores.

I assume you're speaking of Northwest Seed and Pet, yes? They've always carried mongrel puppies from locals, generally with no health check or anything. They've been notorious in Spokane for years, especially during the big parvo outbreaks in the early '80s.

Redwolf

Right store - I just didn't want to get sued for libel or anything!

I've never bought a dog or cat from any pet store. My first dog was free from a neighbor. All the cats have been strays except 2 which came from my sister-in-law. The dog we have now was a "free puppy" that my husband and daughter kept seeing on the way to school. We saw the mom and know that she was a German shepard, and had to take their word for the dad. The vet agrees with their description so I think it's right.

NWSP does keep the pet area clean. But it seems sometimes they don't think about the safety aspects for their employees. There's a young woman who was just hired a few weeks ago who was told to use a bleach and water solution to clean the cages, and she had to work without gloves for a couple of days until she complained because her hands were all red and cracked from the bleach. As a cashier I'm regularly handling containers of pesticide and insecticide, then also handling bottles of pop, then also plants, then the animals if they are not brought up to the register in boxes, all without a moment to wash my hands except on break. I also have to take potatoes and asparagus roots out of the big sacks and repackage them into smaller bags, then go and cashier, without any time to wash up. Even if I remember to bring in a bottle of hand sanitizer, sometimes it's so busy I wouldn't have time in between customers to use it.

[missy]

Scott - that first picture you have posted.......

put uncropped ears on that dog, and it would look surprisingly like one of my boxers (even to the brindle coloration). I don't have a current picture of Buster, or one of him in the same position, but you can see him here:
http://www.strothers.com/ScrapBook/Group1.JPG
(he's the brindle - dark one sitting).

Now, I could honestly see someone who was given that first picture of yours as a "representative" of a pit bull, comparing that to Buster and saying "yep, pit bull". And since he was a rescue, we have no papers to prove otherwise.

Missy