Who's account do you believe, the Italians or the US?

[Caj]

The thing that keeps coming back in my mind, is that apparently even the driver of the car that was fired upon says he was doing about 40-50 Km/h. How much time does a person have after firing a warning shot to make a decision about whether to shoot or not to shoot when a vehicle is coming that fast?

Lots of time, if it isn't driving at you.

This reminds me: how rigorous is their protocol for informing the soldiers in advance? I mean, if I call ahead to get authorization to drive through, am I 99% sure or 99.9% sure or 99.99% sure that the message will get there? Is it delivered by one person, or is there redundancy? Is there some kind of confirmation of message received? I'd want to know, if the failure of a message to get through will result in my head being blown off.

I recently read about how WW-III almost happened when a research rocket was launched from Norway, and scientists informed the USSR of the launch, but somehow the message just didn't get upstream. Someone didn't pass along the info to someone, and central command didn't know about it. Boris Yeltsin was alerted and opened the "nuclear football" to start the Big War.

The lesson is similar: a protocol can kill people when it breaks down, and yet we may never notice the danger. They spent all that effort to prevent nukes from launching accidentally---but it never occurred to them that this little notification process had to be redundant too, or else the nukes would launch anyway.

Caj

[I.D.10-t]

This reminds me: how rigorous is their protocol for informing the soldiers in advance? I mean, if I call ahead to get authorization to drive through, am I 99% sure or 99.9% sure or 99.99% sure that the message will get there? Is it delivered by one person, or is there redundancy? Is there some kind of confirmation of message received? I'd want to know, if the failure of a message to get through will result in my head being blown off.

Good Point. I would like to add that redundancy may also cause more chances for the enemy to intercept the information and use it to kill the guards. Balance is needed and every death makes the pendulum swing from one side to the other.

[s1m0n]

That's two weeks of formal training, Simon, in the operation you say they weren't trained in.

15-5 = ten days, but who's counting?

These operations are designed to last for a total of 15 minutes. Assuming--as you do--that this particular platoon was trained on this and only this procedure every night of their training (a poor assumption; they plainly had many other things to learn) then their maximum training exposure was 150 minutes. The minimum time, which is the more likely, given that they troops had other things to learn, amounts to a total of half an hour of actual exposure.

Given that on the evening in question, in an hour and a quarter (much longer than usual) the troops saw 15-30 cars (a weird number range that doesn't provoke confidence; it sounds like it might have been pulled out of a hat) we could conclude that in training the troops would have encountered a minimum of 6 vehicles or a maximum of 60.

So blocking 6 cars over a span of 30 minutes--or even 60 over 2.5 hours--is a far cry from the two weeks of formal training you allege.

~~

This is significant, because in this accident it was precisely the shooter's inability to cope with a slight deviation in "normal" vehicle behaviour that lead to the italian agent's death.

The shooter expected a *very* narrow range of behaviour, and commenced firing the moment that narrow window was exceeded. If he'd been trained more thoroughly and had seen a wider range of cars and drivers, then we could expect that he might have been able to use better judgement.

[Denny]

If he'd been trained more thoroughly and had seen a wider range of cars and drivers, then we could expect that he might have been able to use better judgement.

If he had better judgment he might not have enlisted!

Denny

[missy]

Denny wrote:
"If he had better judgment he might not have enlisted! "



I think that comment is uncalled for.

Missy

[TomB]

Denny wrote:
"If he had better judgment he might not have enlisted! "



I think that comment is uncalled for.

Missy

I'm with Missy on that one, except I think it's more than uncalled for. I think that on its own, it's an idiotic and insulting statement.

I actually think even less of it than that, but I'll refrain.

Tom

[missy]

Tom wrote:
"I actually think even less of it than that, but I'll refrain. "

Thanks, Tom - I'm trying to show "restraint".

Missy

[Denny]

Sorry!

I was just thinking that if I had had better judgment I would not have enlisted...

Maybe you had to be there.

Denny

[Caj]

This reminds me: how rigorous is their protocol for informing the soldiers in advance? I mean, if I call ahead to get authorization to drive through, am I 99% sure or 99.9% sure or 99.99% sure that the message will get there? Is it delivered by one person, or is there redundancy? Is there some kind of confirmation of message received? I'd want to know, if the failure of a message to get through will result in my head being blown off.

Good Point. I would like to add that redundancy may also cause more chances for the enemy to intercept the information and use it to kill the guards. Balance is needed and every death makes the pendulum swing from one side to the other.

Realistically that's not a problem. Encryption has long since surpassed the point where interception is virtually impossible. The only way to intercept a communication line these days is to bug the endpoints.

Anyways, I'd like to suggest that the protocol itself can be wrong, rather than find a person to blame for dropping the ball. If dropping the ball means someone getting blown away, you really should design the protocol so that the ball doesn't drop very easily.

Caj

[TomB]

Sorry!

I was just thinking that if I had had better judgment I would not have enlisted...

Maybe you had to be there.

Denny

I was, 20 years worth. I'm not one who believes that there is nothing wrong with the military- far from it.

Just that your statement seemed to suggest that anyone with any amount of common sense would not be in the military, which I've found over the years to be far from true. That may not be how you meant it, but that is how it sounded to me.

Ah well, we all learn.

All the Best, Tom

[Denny]

Tom,

In hindsight I'd guess it did. That was not my intent. There are many great people in the military and many with common sense. That part is like everywhere else... There is a bit of everything, somewhere, in the mix.

I don't care for current the all volunteer aspect, but that's another topic.

Denny

[missy]

and Denny - I took it the same way as Tom, and since I have a son who will be reporting to Great Lakes in August, I'm probably not the best one to comment back on that.

Missy

[Denny]

Ah, Great Lakes in August!

Tell him not to tryout for the band or drill team or be over weight or need glasses. You can spend a month waiting for the audition process/weight/glasses only to find out that they have no room for another horn player/etc.! (This means that you have sat around for a month scratching your bald head with nothing to do.)

Much later, when you are marching out to the bus, to leave through the snow, you will know that you have been there way too long.

[missy]

HEHEHE - Denny -
he is NOT musically inclined (must have skipped him!), so no worries on that. As to weight - he actually didn't weigh ENOUGH when he took his physical in November, but they figured he'd certainly gain 5 lbs between then and August, so went ahead and passed him.
He does wear glasses, and he's already looking forward to those stylish frames.

He's going in for air craft mechanic, so will probably be in Pensacola after basic. He'll also be coming out bumped a rank or two because of his past rank in Civil Air Patrol.

I'm just glad he has plans and knows what he wants to do.

Missy

[Denny]

Aviation Fire Control Technician... (AKA baby burner)

I came out as an E3, went to Memphis for electronics. First transistor class that they taught.

Here's to him enjoying what he ends up with!

Denny