On Sessions

[Patrick D'Arcy]

The poll should include "Have some manners, wait until you are asked."

I compare it to intruding on a private conversation.

Think of the musician's playing as being in an intimate conversation. Would you interrupt this situation and start throwing down your opinions to an overheard conversation in a pub? I hope not! Same thing with sessions.... get into some polite talk with the people playing and see where it leads. If the musician's are obviously very good it might be a good oppertunity to listen and learn.

Some conversations are open some closed. People meeting for first time in years and sharing a few moments or a tourist pub with paid musicians.. the differences are huge and people should be very mindful of this.

Didn't Martin Haye's write a good book on session ettiquette? There are websites with good direction also.

Beginning pipers have no real place in the session.... they can't even play by themselves so how is anyone else supposed to either? It becomes their moment to play a tune alone. The best thing is for the new piper is to be invited to play one tune so they can display their progress and then people can give them encouragement etc. but one tune is plenty. This isn't harsh it's just more civil for everyone.

Just my opinion,

Patrick.

[PJ]

I compare it to intruding on a private conversation.

Don't forget that most sessions go on in pubs. A few drinks, and I'll talk to anyone, whether I've been introduced or not. Same thing for music in a pub. A few drinks and everyone thinks that they're Michael Jackson (ok, bad example).

But your point is taken. We should wait to be invited to join.

[WannabePiper]

Could a newb conceivably ask, before things start, to sit in on a particular tune to see how it goes? How else would one get "initiated"? Maybe we could "Blood in?"

[djm]

I don't think this is solely a reflection of trad music sessions. Think of any other group activity you may be involved in (skating, skiing, golf, etc.). Maybe golf is a good example. You go out with a group of friends to play a few rounds. A newbie doesn't just "impose" themselves on your group of friends. He/she is "invited" to join. A newbie can ask a group if they can join in, and many times the group is agreeable, and everybody is willing to indulge the newbie - to an extent.

But, hey, you're there to play golf, not spend your entire day nursing a newbie along. It is incumbent for the newbie to have some skills in place before joining, or sit back and observe/learn from the sidelines.

I don't believe sessions are any different. If you want to sit in with a bunch of other newbies and noodle along, that is the type of session you should be looking for, or start one yourself. That seems to be parallel to the guitar sessions that were mentioned at the start of this thread.

djm

[Cynth]

he left in a huff. No doubt thinking we were a pair of elitist bolloxes. But were we? Do you really think that's a good way of going about getting goodwill, help, encouragement etc?

It seems to me, since I never hesitate to give an opinion about something I know nothing about , that this fellow was either very socially dense or very rude. When two people are alone in a corner playing (or doing anything else for that matter), most people would pick up on the fact that they wish to play alone.

Maybe right when he talked to you or even chasing after him if necessary, you could have said politely but firmly "Friend, we came to this corner to practice a duet", or "Friend, we came to this corner to work on some problems in private." "Maybe we'll catch you later."

Okay, he might still have gone off in a huff, but then he did anyway. You would then have known that you had been as polite as possible and your time would not have been ruined.

It is embarrassing to have to tell people things like that, and ideally it would not be necessary, but better to bite the bullet and do it ultra-politely right away and not get into a situation where you end up angry and having your time spoiled.

[David Lim]

The poll should include "Have some manners, wait until you are asked."

I think any musician, piper or not, may wait a long time if they take this approach.

My vote is for being sensitive but not over sensitive. (As well as good mannered)

David

[magroibin]

There seem to be two major thoughts here:
1) Session Ettiquette
2) Beginner vs. Non beginner

I find that there is usually good concensus on what constitutes good session ettiquette. Some finer points of which have been pointed out very well lately. Peter, djm and Patrick (and others) have got it pretty much spot on.

But what may be of help to myrddinemrys is some kind of benchmark for what the greater ITM community as a whole considers Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced either for sessions, or for players themselves. Also, tionals and workshops are often geared around Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced classes so are there any objective (or subjective) ways to determine this?

Djm gave a stab at defining a good beginner as: "You need to have the basic tunes down pat before joining in. You need to have an open ear, and the ability to change your version of a tune to the version that the rest of the session is using. " Or does that define the intermediate player?

Paul

P.S. Should this be addressed in a new thread?

[Uilliam]

Patrick is bang on and I agree with Peter.
I am under the impression here in Glasgowville that 1 or 2 have taken it a stage further and are playing so badly that in their own way they are asking,nae pleading,to be asked to piss off.I had a canary almost sitting on my shoulder 2 weeks ago playing if thats what it can be described as,a whistle.He couldnae play the thing ,but worse came in on every single tune regardless whether he knew it or not and it was really painfully obvious that he didnae have a scooby what the basic structures of the tunes were.Did that stop him?,did it stuff.I remained impassive throughout the evening but I was horror struck at the end of the night when he said "goodbye,see ye soon" Thats what ye get for being welcoming.....
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[Jim McGuire]

If they did not welcome you, then they are likely not the paid anchor/host. Find the bar owner and tell him that you and your session buddies (point toward them very surreptitiously) will bring in a lot of drinkers (and that is music to you-know-who) with a weekly scheduled session. You'll be the anchor on salary, doing the publicity, and have the ability to dole out drinks as appropriate. Bring over two fresh ones to the playing musicians, tell them there's free drink in it for them if they turn up next week. Turn up half hour before you told them to show up, get the pipes out, and you'll soon be in your session.

[Patrick D'Arcy]

Turn up half hour before you told them to show up, get the pipes out, and you'll soon be in your session.

Crafty bugger Jim!

PD.

[myrddinemrys]

That or get the dudes so drunk they pass out--there's your shot at a solo.

[wharfedalecarving]

The majority of sessions I've attended over a fair number of years have in the main been polite and inviting to "newbies" whatever instrument they play. If someone walked in carrying an instrument case and sat down with a pint, at some stage they would be invited to get out their instrument ( ) and play a tune. Comments such as "well I'm only a beginner and only know a couple of tunes" is fine. If they play they get an applause on that ONE OCCASION and never again whether they be good or shoyte. Basically they are made welcome and in the majority of cases newbies know their own limitations and don't attempt to join in everything.
On the rare occasion when someone turns up and attemps to turn it into something else (Val Doonican, Buddy Holly et cetera) they are politely told it isn't appropriate in this session:twisted:
However, some of the "professional sessions" that I have attended (sometimes by chance) is a different kettle of fish so to speak. Some are excellent and others not so. Of the "not so" type with a smattering of prima donna's holding court, I prefer to call in, listen for a while and then go in the other bar for a few "wets" of Guinness or whatever and enjoy the craic of the verbal variety. Oft times prima donna sessions have a habit of sounding too mechanical and totally devoid of soul. Often have an instrumentalist who dominates the session, plays very well but oft times at a break-neck speed to excess. That may well suit some of course but not me. That's your choice and I have mine. If I want sterile musical perfection I'll buy a CD.
If I want to hear a few good musician's and have an enjoyable evening listening and joining in possibly, I'll opt for the session where the players are smiling and look to be having a damned good time. Chances are I'll have a good time too.
My advice to a "newbi". Go and find yourself a friendly session and drink in the atmosphere (and a few wets) over a two or three week period and get to know what tunes are played as there is bound to be a "session" favourite; always is. Learn that and a couple of your own. If the people are typical of the majority of sessions then once you turn up carrying a "case" you will be asked to get out your instrument ( ) especially as they will by now probably know your face.
Oh yes, have a back up. I always learn new tunes on the whistle to begin with. Take a whistle to the session. It is generally easier to join in with a whistle quite simply because it is easier to "back off" if the tune "turns" and you are unfamilier with that particular version.
One final piece of advice. If you become "good to excellent", don't become a prima donna
Joseph (the UK biggoted one)

[L42B]

Intersting topic, In my own opinion the more experience the younger piper gets the better. As long as he/she has some resonable experience up their seleve (six months to a year). Should be able to join in. However some curtasy on behalf of the newbie should be shown. When entering a session I always try to ask first. Barging in is the last thing you should do. Not only does it make you look like a bossy control freek, but you also look rediculouse in front of the audience.

I only join in with tunes that I know well and don't expect to be able to join in with all of them. Sometimes though if the group insists improvisation is called for . In that case I'll just play the regulators without the chanter and drones and only if they [regulators] are in tune.

In conclusion I think it's important for sessions to have an open door pollicie. Curtasy should also be shown by both the newbie and the pro. Rudness only makes you look extreamly stupid in a session sittuation.

Cheers L42B

[Antaine]

I haven't, and have no intentions of joining a pub session. session musicians seem to be a cliquish lot and that session is their outlet for some fun. I don't know, but in situations like that (not just piping...maybe even weekend poker) the group tends to be tight knit and derive their pleasure in part from the stability. Newcomers are seldom welcome in instances like that and I can understand it as I hate when it's done to me in other areas. I try not to intrude on such a situation when I perceive one.

that having been said, on the Gaeilge board we're having somewhat of a similar discussion, and the conclusion we seem to be tending toward is that those restrictive elements seek to preserve the traditional role of the language (or in this case, instrument), thus insuring its marginalization.

the guitar example I think says more than was intended. I really feel that the multitude of instruments and guitarists out there exist precisely because of how the instrument is treated. If a group of purists decided that the guitar should be a living museum of 16th century spanish culture then it would have never become what it is today. It still occupies it's original places in classical and spanish folk music, but WOW...it has found its way into every niche...

Like with language, instruments will find it impossible to stand still...they must carve out as wide a berth as possible or face extinction.

but back to the point, I don't think discouraging newcomers from joining established sessions is necessarily something to be condemned as long as a distinction is made between that and failing to engender a positive learning environment to "grow" the population of pipers in the world...

[Uilliam]

[quote="Antaine"]I haven't, and have no intentions of joining a pub session. session musicians seem to be a cliquish lot and that session is their outlet for some fun. .

the guitar example I think says more than was intended. I really feel that the multitude of instruments and guitarists out there exist precisely because of how the instrument is treated. ......, but WOW...it has found its way into every niche...
quote]
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That really is a sweeping statement don't ye think?
Maybe they(the sessioneers) seem cliquesqe to ye because they probably know the tunes and ye probably don't.


re the guitars and" but WOW...it has found its way into every niche...."..well so has E-Coli Bacteria,doesna make it pleasant tho...
Uilliam