How do I set my new metronome

[Bloomfield]

I beg to differ. I think the metronome can help.

Sorry to dig this up but I disagree. One doesn't need a metronome to learn how to hit the beats. Listening to good ITM and playing along will do much more for you than playing countless hours along with a metronome. I wonder what Denis Murphy, Paddy Carty, and Willie Clancy set their metronomes to. :roll:

Where do the countless hours come from? And aren't you confusing two questions: Is a metronome necessary to learn to hit the beats? No. (Don't make me out to recommend some slavish devotion to metronomes at the cost of listening to the real stuff.) Can a metronome help? Yes. And frankly, Willie Clancy wasn't always the best model for playing steady (just listen to the Templehouse/Over the Moor to Maggie set on whistle; he ends up 20 bpm faster than he starts, or something).

[MurphyStout]

Bloom, I was just putting my opinion out there because I think it's a bad idea for beginners to think that a metronome will help them become a good itm player. I'm not saying that you said that, I just feel obligated to express my viewpoint which is to listen.

But if you're going to say that track of Clancy's is garbage we can end this discussion right now

[Bloomfield]

But if you're going to say that track of Clancy's is garbage we can end this discussion right now

Ah, it's a lovely track. But not steady.

[MurphyStout]

But if you're going to say that track of Clancy's is garbage we can end this discussion right now

Ah, it's a lovely track. But not steady.

Well sometimes we must look beyond rthyhm OKA Tommy Potts. I'm still waiting to hear from the music teacher.

[ChrisA]

To try and clarify on 'how to use a metronome', I think it's really best to to set it for
half-speed on reels. Bloomfield called this the 'first and third beats', but I would call
it the 'first and fifth notes', which isn't always literally true, but, there's two eighth notes
to a beat. So the same thing that Bloomfield said there.

For double-jigs and slip-jigs, I'd set it for once every 3-'eight-notes' of time. In most jig
notations, (6/8, 9/8) a beat and an eighth note are the same, so. In a double jig, first
and fourth, in a slip-jig, first, fourth, and seventh.Iif you have a two-tone metronome,
you'll want, for a double jig, 'hard/soft/hard/soft' and for a slip-jig 'hard/soft/soft'.

You definitely do not want to be playing to six metronome-clicks per bar of your double-jig,
because the timing within a bar or a phrase is not metronomic. Metronomes will give you
the 'timing' but not the 'rhythm', so to speak. Trying to follow a metronome for
8-ticks-per-bar of a reel or 6-ticks-per-bar of a slipjig is going to flatten the music out
beyond recognition, and do damage to any sense of the correct rhythm.

It is also probably best not to get in the habit of always playing to the metronome. The
metronome is, in my opinion, for developing a sense of timing. The more your sense of
timing develops, the less value the metronome will have.

I don't think I'm saying anything revolutionary here, in fact, I think I'm repeating some things
often said on this board, but I hope I'm being clear enough to dispel any potential confusion.

[Scott McCallister]

So Murph,

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your musical background?

Someone who is a music teacher has more than likely achieved proficiency on several instruments (and mastery of a few) decidedly more complex (read "difficult") than our beloved end-blown-fipple-flute. And done so at a cost of countless hours of practice on each instrument. I would venture a guess that they have also paid their dues in the world of pedagogy of these disciplines. I will defer to their judgment about the process of learning music.

Why the big stink about metronomes? They are a tool. And just like any other tool, they can really help out in some situations and not so much in others. Can you pound a nail with a wrench? Ya, but a hammer is better. Can a metronome help you learn to play in time? Absolutely! The biggest aid it provides is the development of a "muscular memory" of how a particular pattern is played. Developing this slowly and perfectly is easily accomplished with the use of a metronome. And it will do so in a generic manner that lends itself to all forms and styles of music. Time is time after all. A metronome simply apportions it evenly. Will it help you to play the feel of a tune? Ya... If you understand the context of the musical idea to begin with. Here recordings are better. Like Bloom said though, some of the old masters are not the best example of even playing regardless of how brilliant the performance is.

BTW... very uncool to attack someone's profession particularly one devoted to the education of others. :roll:

[Bloomfield]

So Murph,

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your musical background?

You can go listen to Murph's clips on clips & snips and hear for yourself.

And it will do so in a generic manner that lends itself to all forms and styles of music. Time is time after all. A metronome simply apportions it evenly.

Here I am with Murphy. The assumption that what works elsewhere works in ITM is very iffy, imho. I happen to agree that a metronome can help in ITM, but the reason I agree is not because it lends itself to "all forms or styles of music."

Will it help you to play the feel of a tune? Ya... If you understand the context of the musical idea to begin with. Here recordings are better. Like Bloom said though, some of the old masters are not the best example of even playing regardless of how brilliant the performance is.

This is the right disclaimer, but in Murphy's experience and in mine, it doesn't sound convincing enough. It sounds like "I can learn the music from sheet music and listen to Ennis (for the feel of the tune) occasionally in order to play this music." Perhaps some people can; I've certainly met many who thought they could. But I haven't met someone who did.

BTW... very uncool to attack someone's profession particularly one devoted to the education of others. :roll:

I don't think Murphy was attacking the profession of music teacher. Murphy is a bit terse because there have been so many arguments here about "I'll learn the Music, but I'll learn it my way" vs. "Listen, listen, listen and play by ear." It's "Wow" to noobies like Cynth, but "Yawn" to pretty much everyone else. Sure, Murphy didn't sugar coat it, and should have; but let's not get a knick in our knotters.

[Whitmores75087]

Keep in mind that the mechanical metronome has been around many years. Beethoven had metronome settings marked on his music. I can't prove it, but I'll bet the old timers of ITM used them to practice to. Everyone should have one, Bodhran players excepted.

[Scott McCallister]

So Murph,

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your musical background?

You can go listen to Murph's clips on clips & snips and hear for yourself.

I did that just now. Very enjoyable. Murphy rushes his triplet figures though. Especially prevalent in his rendition of The Lilting Banshee from 7/2702. Granted that was a long time ago I'm sure he is better now than then. It is good to have chronicle of progress like that. I am forced to wonder how much faster he could have progressed with metronomic practice. Or if he would have had the rushing problem to begin with?
Admittedly, I don't have any snips of my playing for others to review, but then I am not holding that out as a measure of my musical prowess either.

And it will do so in a generic manner that lends itself to all forms and styles of music. Time is time after all. A metronome simply apportions it evenly.

Here I am with Murphy. The assumption that what works elsewhere works in ITM is very iffy, imho. I happen to agree that a metronome can help in ITM, but the reason I agree is not because it lends itself to "all forms or styles of music."

What I meant here is that a metronome is exact in its time division. (hence the generic universality) It is still up to the player to know what they have to do in with reference to that time stamp to play in time. A jazz saxophonist will benefit equally as much as a classical pianist, or equally as much as a ITM whistle player. The style is radically different for each player and as such their rhythmic references to a tempo's beat with be different as well, The beat's relationship to the next beat however is static...(unless specifically designed to accelerate or ritard) as such a metronome is helpful here.

Will it help you to play the feel of a tune? Ya... If you understand the context of the musical idea to begin with. Here recordings are better. Like Bloom said though, some of the old masters are not the best example of even playing regardless of how brilliant the performance is.

This is the right disclaimer, but in Murphy's experience and in mine, it doesn't sound convincing enough. It sounds like "I can learn the music from sheet music and listen to Ennis (for the feel of the tune) occasionally in order to play this music." Perhaps some people can; I've certainly met many who thought they could. But I haven't met someone who did.

Like I said earlier, tools usually have only a single best use. For the proper feel of the music, you have to play with others who know how it is supposed to run. (or in their absence, with recordings) A Metronome is only useful in this instance if you already understand that context/style.

BTW... very uncool to attack someone's profession particularly one devoted to the education of others. :roll:

I don't think Murphy was attacking the profession of music teacher. Murphy is a bit terse because there have been so many arguments here about "I'll learn the Music, but I'll learn it my way" vs. "Listen, listen, listen and play by ear." It's "Wow" to noobies like Cynth, but "Yawn" to pretty much everyone else. Sure, Murphy didn't sugar coat it, and should have; but let's not get a knick in our knotters.

I think Murphy's words are clear enough. He was irritated that someone disagreed with him so he challenged not only their musicality but the integrity of their chosen profession. Did I miss something there?

And really... isn't "Listen, listen, listen and play by ear" another way of saying "learn music my way"?

I believe that people cheat themselves by not taking advantage of every possible tool that is available to them in learning music.

Best regards,
Scott McCallister

[Bloomfield]

I think Murphy's words are clear enough. He was irritated that someone disagreed with him so he challenged not only their musicality but the integrity of their chosen profession. Did I miss something there?

Well, yes. Murphy doesn't care very much whether you agree with him or not. He cares about the music and (rightly or wrongly) takes exception to the implication that someone just because they are a music teacher (in some other style) can speak intelligently about Irish trad. It's not a reflection on music teachers, it's a reflection of the initial impenetrability of Irish trad. And I'll stop now interpreting for the Murphster.

And really... isn't "Listen, listen, listen and play by ear" another way of saying "learn music my way"?

Yes, of course it is. Doesn't make it less true (I hope).

P.S. Triplets are supposed to be rushed. More "one-ti-and" then "one-la-li."

[Scott McCallister]

And really... isn't "Listen, listen, listen and play by ear" another way of saying "learn music my way"?

Yes, of course it is. Doesn't make it less true (I hope).

Of course not.

I remember in college when I was in a dixie land band. (remarkably similar to ITM in the way the music was passed on from generation to generation ) Best stuff we ever put out was never written down and the drummer was more of an ornament than a time keeper. That was left up to the bass.

P.S. Triplets are supposed to be rushed. More "one-ti-and" then "one-la-li."

Ya I get that, but you have to make up for the short on the front with long on the back so the "one" of "one-ti-and" falls on the beat and stays even and not rushed. Thats usually for triplets on reels and duple meter tunes tho' isn't it. The Lilting Banshee is a jig. Have a listen see if you hear what I heard.

[MurphyStout]

Hey man, that's uncool... that lilting banshee clip is very old!!!! I had only been playing for a few months at that time and I had no clue.

I just sent a click clip Tony but if you wanna hear me on my real instrument check out the flute recordings. There are a few of mine on there.

[MurphyStout]

Hey man, I'm the last guy to talk bad about teachers, both my parents are teachers. If you didn't notice the tongue in cheek disclaimer that's your problem. Teachers are very important. I was just pointing out that he might be able to play Beethoven's Moonlight sonata like a bat out of hell but lets hesr him on the Killavil jig.

You guys really get easily worked up. I'm just saying that irish music survived for hundreds of years without metronomes and it is doing quite well because the irish people were immersed in it. Listening to ALOT of good itm is the BEST tool there is.

Sorry for the mix up, the internet isn't the best place for sarcasm.

[feadogin]

Just FYI, y'all...I've been playing Irish music for about 17 years, and Mr. Murphy has one of the best senses of rhythm of anyone I have ever played with, which is especially impressive for someone who has been playing for the amount of time he has.

I always enjoy playing with him because he knows just what beats to swing and just how to emphasize the rhythm.

And I'm sure that his sense of rhythm comes entirely from the fact that he listens to those old classic recordings all the time.
I personally agree that it's much better to work on rhythm by playing along with recordings and other musicians...that way you are working on the tunes and the phrasing as well as the rhythm, and getting a feel for the music as a whole.

Justine

[Scott McCallister]

Calm down Murph, this is a friendly place!

from the last couple of posts, I can infer that Murphy has been playing a couple of years... since maybe spring of '02.. Fair enough?

I mean:

that lilting banshee clip is very old!!!! I had only been playing for a few months at that time and I had no clue.

and

which is especially impressive for someone who has been playing for the amount of time he has.

A total guess is that the whole ITM thing may be your first musical pursuit? If so, could there possibly be room for the notion that a professional music teacher, regardless of their stylistic discipline, may have some valuable insight into techniques that can make for a more learned student, or at the very least shorten the learning curve for people starting from scratch? Is that possible? Don't get me wrong. Your clips have merit and show that you are building your chops. But heck I bet even Yo-Yo-Ma is constantly aiming for improvement. I also bet he does more than just listen to the music he studies.

Listening to ALOT of good itm is the BEST tool there is.

Kind of an unqualified statement there... Best tool for what? Learning music? Learning rhythm? Learning style? Relaxing on a Sunday morning? Pounding nails? I get what you are saying here but keep in mind that it may be the best tool there is ... for you. Other's mileage may vary.

Kind of like saying that a telescope is the best tool for studying the moon. While certainly a good tool, It can not show you the far side. For that you need to approach the subject in a different manner.

To keep with a running theme... The hammer I have is the best tool I have when I need to drive nails. It is virtually useless when trying to fix a radio or remove a splinter from my hand. Conversely, I would not try to drive nails with a soldering iron or a set of tweezers.

My point is that no single tool does everything best... In my experience rarely more than one thing best. A professional music teacher has a well-stocked tool chest for the business of music education. You may do well to see what they have to say. But then again, you might not. I guess it is what you make of it.

Best regards,
Scott McCallister

edited for clarity