time signatures: 6/8 vs. 9/8

[headwizer]

In the Bill Ochs tutorial, 6/8 tunes have two beats. Does this mean that a 9/8 tune will have 3 beats?

Is there any time when a 6/8 tune has other than 2 beats - like maybe 6 beats?

[monkey587]

In the Bill Ochs tutorial, 6/8 tunes have two beats. Does this mean that a 9/8 tune will have 3 beats?

Is there any time when a 6/8 tune has other than 2 beats - like maybe 6 beats?

you're correct that 9/8 has three beats.

It's rare for 6/8 to have a 6-beat feel. That is more commonly expressed as 6/4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature

[spittin_in_the_wind]

6/8 time sounds like "diddle-y diddly-y"....



Robin

[colomon]

It's rare for 6/8 to have a 6-beat feel. That is more commonly expressed as 6/4.

I would agree that IMO 6-beats should definitely be 6/4, but sad to say, lots of older music uses 6/8 for it.

Lots of more modern "classical" music blurs the distinction between 6/8 and 3/4, so you'll see measures of 6/8 that it are easier to think about in 3, and measures of 3/4 that are easier to think about in 2. The boundaries get very fuzzy....

[Rosee]

There's a word for that: hemiola. Not sure if it pertains to playing measures of three like they were in two or playing measures of two like they were in three. http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... miola.html
You can hear the difference in the song America in West Side Story, and episode 122 of Schickele Mix.

[colomon]

While it's certainly true that the sound in America is going back and forth between 2 and 3 beats to a bar, I'm pretty sure Bernstein actually switches back and forth between 6/8 and 3/4 appropriately. (Sorry, it's late and I don't want to go running through the house looking for my complete score to WSS to verify this.)

But yes, it's when the music actually has rhythms in 2 and rhythms in 3 right on top of each other that things usually get tricky notation-wise.... because either way of writing it down makes sense from a certain perspective.

[monkey587]

While it's certainly true that the sound in America is going back and forth between 2 and 3 beats to a bar, I'm pretty sure Bernstein actually switches back and forth between 6/8 and 3/4 appropriately. (Sorry, it's late and I don't want to go running through the house looking for my complete score to WSS to verify this.)

But yes, it's when the music actually has rhythms in 2 and rhythms in 3 right on top of each other that things usually get tricky notation-wise.... because either way of writing it down makes sense from a certain perspective.

It also comes up in flamenco, in the guajiras form specifically. there may be others too.

[Band Nerd]

6/8 time is my personal favorite to play in!

[brewerpaul]

There's a word for that: hemiola. Not sure if it pertains to playing measures of three like they were in two or playing measures of two like they were in three. http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... miola.html
You can hear the difference in the song America in West Side Story, and episode 122 of Schickele Mix.

In Baroque music, these hemiolas get pretty interesting. In a typical 4 part piece, the different voices are usually playing different notes, but they may also be playing different rythms or articulations. In other words, the tenor line may be articulating as if the piece was in 6 beats, but the soprano may be articulating 3/4. They may switch back and forth many times in a given movement. The players COULD simply play everything as if it were 6 even beats to the measure, but in this type of music the rythmic variation really spices things up a lot.

I looked at the Schickele Mix site and found episode 122, but all that's there is a play list: does anyone know where I can actually hear this and other back shows?

In case you have never listened to it, Schickele Mix is "Music Appreciation" the way it SHOULD be taught. Each show has a theme, and Schickele illustrates that theme interestingly and often hilariously with music from a huge variety of genres-- Beatles to Mozart to African tribal music to Philip Glass, etc. Guaranteed, this show on Public Radio WILL broaden your horizons. Highly recommended.

[fluti31415]

While it's certainly true that the sound in America is going back and forth between 2 and 3 beats to a bar, I'm pretty sure Bernstein actually switches back and forth between 6/8 and 3/4 appropriately. .

I've performed the West Side Story suite (Bernstein's edition for orchestra -- not a transcription), and Bernstein does stay in 6/8 the entire time.

[colomon]

I've performed the West Side Story suite (Bernstein's edition for orchestra -- not a transcription), and Bernstein does stay in 6/8 the entire time.

I just checked the score, and we're both wrong. The time signature indicated is 6/8 (3/4), just like that, parentheses and all.

[chas]

There's a word for that: hemiola. Not sure if it pertains to playing measures of three like they were in two or playing measures of two like they were in three. http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary ... miola.html
You can hear the difference in the song America in West Side Story, and episode 122 of Schickele Mix.

I looked at the Schickele Mix site and found episode 122, but all that's there is a play list: does anyone know where I can actually hear this and other back shows?

In case you have never listened to it, Schickele Mix is "Music Appreciation" the way it SHOULD be taught. Each show has a theme, and Schickele illustrates that theme interestingly and often hilariously with music from a huge variety of genres-- Beatles to Mozart to African tribal music to Philip Glass, etc. Guaranteed, this show on Public Radio WILL broaden your horizons. Highly recommended.

IIRC, the (non) commercial for this episode had the perfessor asking, "What did Brahms and Schumann have in common? Besides an interest in Clara, that is." The answer was hemiola.

AFAIK, there's nowhere online to listen to Schickele Mix. The website, which hasn't been updated in a cat's age, used to have a list of stations that broadcast it. I dunno if there is such a list or even if it's being broadcast anywhere these days.

[Scott McCallister]

There's a word for that: hemiola.

Whenever I get a hemiola, I apply pressure and a clean gause bandage.

On a more serious note. (ahem) Lots of times this comes back to an editors choice. Like in Bernsteins America. Sometimes the editor makes things easier to understand, sometimes not.

I always thought a more thorough definition of hemiola was the interplay of duple and triple rhythms simultaneously rather than consecutively.

Hmmm... something to look up in my spare time.... hahahaha as if I had any.

[brewerpaul]

[quote
AFAIK, there's nowhere online to listen to Schickele Mix. The website, which hasn't been updated in a cat's age, used to have a list of stations that broadcast it. I dunno if there is such a list or even if it's being broadcast anywhere these days.[/quote]

Yes-- it's definitely still on: I heard a great show about Rounds/Canons just last night! Check your local station.

[colomon]

Yes-- it's definitely still on: I heard a great show about Rounds/Canons just last night! Check your local station.

Are you sure it's not just reruns? I'm a fan of Schickele (I never really listened to his radio show, but he is, among other things, one of our greatest composers of bassoon quartets) and I was under the definite impression the radio show was history.