Designs better for playing third octave?

[springrobin]

Are there certain wooden flute designs that play better in the third octave (other than Boehm)? My reason for asking is that I’ve been asked to play an arrangement of Down to the River with handbell accompaniment that goes up to the E there and the silver flute just doesn’t have the SOUL for the piece. I did use it for the first rehearsal ‘cause I didn’t know what key I was walking into (turned out to be G), but it was SOOO MECHANICAL and oops tried to slide and got a funny sthth instead. Guess I forgot where I was. Anyway, can work out the upper octave parts for this piece on the keyless but now am thinking I should get a six-holed something with keys 'cause I won't always be lucky on the key a piece is written in. Likewise with octaves. How high can these flutes really go and do certain bore/hole configurations perform better after the second octave than others? Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Robin

[andrewK]

It is much cheaper to get rid of the handbells than to buy a decent flute.

Failing that a Clinton flute for India might please any of the audience who find themselves wishing they were there.

( Sorry, only joking! )

[peeplj]

My Hamilton has a very clear and easy third octave.

Most simple system flutes will have a good high E. Fingerings to try:

( x x o | x x o ) -- try this one first

( x x o | o x x ) -- may be better on some flutes

( x x o | o x o ) -- my M&E R&R requires this fingering

--James

[Matt_Paris]

On a good wooden flute, the high E should be easy to obtain.

Definitely the best fingering on my RR is xx0 0xx plus D# key. On my Pratten copy, xx0 xx0 worked well. I didn't know the one given by peeplj.

There is some work anyway to have a good third octave (the F# & Fnat can be very difficult), good luck.

[Jayhawk]

High E is definitely easy on every simple system flute I've played or owned. Personally, while you can play notes above the high E, I'd rather play a picollo or fife to obtain the higher notes. The really high A is about the highest I go on my flutes, and then only rarely.

Eric

[springrobin]

Yeah, it probably took awhile before I could reach those upper notes on the Boehm dependably but that was too long ago to remember. Was hoping that sometime in the evolutionary process, someone found that making a certain design change in a wooden flute facilitated the upper octave other than adding a bezillion keys to cover all those nice holes. The design variations I've read about so far have suggested that certain things were done to increase volume or improve intonation, but did anyone say something like "changing ***** improved transition to the third octave?" Also, how high can I realistically expect to go?

[peeplj]

While fingering charts usually go up to "super-C" (3rd c-natural above middle C), the highest note I can hit musically on a simple system flute is 3rd octave A:

( o x x | x x o )

I don't recall any dance tunes that go above the 3rd octave E. The Contradiction goes up to the E and that's about the highest I've seen (without intentionally playing something up an octave).

--James

[ChrisA]

Search the forums for cork adjustment... cork placement is important in getting proper
tone for a third-octave, and to-day's corks are usually positioned to play two strong
octaves at the expense of a weak third. (I believe you need to pull it a little further out
if you're playing 3 octaves... but not by much. Some 21 mm for 3 octaves, 18 for 2 octaves,
IIRC. I think Terry McGee's site has something on this.)

You should be able to go right up through root->ocatave->octave'->octave'" ... with
sufficiently good technique and instrument... (I can't do so - at least, not in the sense
of playing them in a tune - but my understanding is that this -was- done by the past-masters
when the old system flutes were the standard system.)

I don't know how anyone ever gets good at the third octave of the flute - or the fife,
for that matter - just a few notes and my ears are painfully ringing! And I wouldn't inflict
the sounds of practicing those high notes on anyone else, so I only experiment with it when
the house is empty... anyway. Good luck.

[andrewK]

I trust that you don't drive mad all the dogs in the district !

[Terry McGee]

Most of the 19th century fingering charts take you up to the C at the bottom of the fourth octave. It does help to reduce the stopper distance at least to 17mm. I can do that note on all my models, and even get to the D above it on a good day.

Charanga flutists (playing Cuban dance music) routinely go up to 4th octave G#. To facilitate this they pull the stopper distance back to around 12.5mm (1/2") and often enlarge the embouchure holes. Their favoured flute type is the French 5-key, possibly for historical reasons, but more likely that the thinner bore and small holes assist in these very short wavelength notes.

I'm making a flute for a Charanga player at the moment (based on the French 5-key), so I'll have more to say on the topic in a few months! It will be interesting to see if you can retrain an old Irish player like me to get up to G#''''.

Those wishing to clear the bats from the belfry will find a charanga fingering chart on my website (and some 19th century English ones). Remember to get these high notes:
- stopper in to at least 17mm, 12.5 if you want the 4th octave notes
- shorten the jet length and increase jet speed by tightening the lips and pouting more
- blow at the edge, not below it as we normally do.

For the top few notes, the Cuban players "spit" the note, which works wonderfully well with their dynamic dance music.

Remember to put the stopper back to 19 or more afterwards - these short distances really decimate bottom octave performance! Amazingly, Charanga players also do need to play the bottom octave, particulalry in the Bolero - hard work to get a decent tone down there with the stopper set for the top end. I've been wondering about a "Scruggs Peg Stopper".

Terry

[bang]

my understanding is that as a general rule, flutes w/ narrower bores are easier to play in the higher octaves. it also seems to me that thinner walled flutes are easier to play up high. there are clearly exceptions to this, like peeplj's Hammy (which does surprise me, in the absence of any actual experience on a Hammy).

do these principles seem generally true for others?

to refine the original question perhaps, which flutes sound especially good in the 3rd octave?

and for folks sensitive to loud high notes, which are easiest to play *quietly* in the 3rd?

tia! /dan

[Blayne Chastain]

The Rudall that John Gallagher reproduces does really nicely in the 3rd octave... It is modeled after the one that Chris Norman Plays - so very similar to the one that Rod Cameron makes... For someone looking for a smalled holed flute it really fits the bill... Suprisingly the low D is awesome... It really pops out... His keywork is second to none as well.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Have we seen pics of his flutes yet?

M

[le_koukou]

Hi Terry,

Does your "refined Rudall" (medium sized holes) model has a better 3rd octave than your other 2 Rudall models (larger holes)?

[Blayne Chastain]

Have we seen pics of his flutes yet?

M

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=28241

Best,