Question on flute scale length

norseman · Post by **norseman** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:16 pm

I have a Sweeheart flute, an M&E R&R, and I recently traded a Dixon 3-piece polymer flute, all in D.

When I put the M&E or Dixon side by side with the Sweeheart, the tone hole spacing is nearly identical, but the distance from the embouchure hole to the first tone hole is about 3/4 inch longer on the Sweeheart than either the M&E or Dixon. All 3 were setup to play at standard pitch. Can someone please explain this?

Thanks,
Bob

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:57 pm

Bore size is most likely the difference. Terry McGee, Loren, or Jon C could provide much more of an explanation.

The bore on my Sweetheart is roughly the same size as my Seery - my guess is both are larger bored than the M&E R&R and the Dixon 3 piece.

Eric

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:08 pm

Eric is correct, but aslo there is bore Taper (decreasing angle) that also will affect the instrument length. An example would be comparing a cylindrical flute bore with a tapered Recorder bore in the same key.

note: Bore taper is used to tune/correct a phase shift flattening effect between registers. Recorders do a poor job with this and would benefit from an adjustable fipple plug, similar to a flute. Bore taper performs this task by shifting the cutoff or "flip" frequencies between registers.

Bore diameter (cylindrical), also controls the favored harmonics. A large bore will favor high frequencies while a narrow bore will favor low frequencies. It functions by restricting weak high frequncies in narrowing bores. The same is true for small toneholes.

rama · Post by **rama** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:20 pm

tuning slide ?

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:24 am

Jayhawk wrote:Bore size is most likely the difference.

.....

So many things can be explained by bores.

norseman · Post by **norseman** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:51 am

rama wrote:tuning slide ?

If I understand your question, no. Only the M&E has a tuning slide, and as I mentioned, all three flutes were set to play at standard pitch.

It could be the bore size as was mentioned. It just seems that if the difference is because of the bore size, the tone hole spacing would be a little different also. Since I'm not a flute maker, obviously I could be way off here.

Bob

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:07 am

Jayhawk wrote:Bore size is most likely the difference. Terry McGee, Loren, or Jon C could provide much more of an explanation.

The bore on my Sweetheart is roughly the same size as my Seery - my guess is both are larger bored than the M&E R&R and the Dixon 3 piece.

Eric

Just curious about the sweetheart - what's the volume like?

reason I ask: I was at a session about three weeks ago and one of the other players had what I thought he said was a sweetheart. But, it was loud as hell. Whatever it was, it blew my M&E/RR out of the water for volume.

Maybe it was a different maker.

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:39 am

All these things above have truth in them, and another that no one mentioned was embochure size and wall thichness that amounts to a chimney, very important. However, keep in mind that the whole thing is a complicated equation very siimilar to that of an electronic or microwave circuit. To work it out requires equations of phase related tranendental (trig) functions. The equations are almost exactly the equations for transmission lines, like your tv antenna and cables.

We have a thread called flute lichen. I think I will start a thread of flute physics. There would have to be two sections. One with higher math and one with concepts only. I have been putting note together just for clearing my head about what changes with what. The only thing available right now is a PHD thesis and it is on woodwinds in general.
There are a couple things I do not know the physics of yet, re cause-and effect, the big one being speak easyness and a (maybe) related properity of wall smoothness.

Nelson

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:04 am

Wormdiet - My Sweetheart (it's one of the rosewood 4 key models - not sure if that makes a difference though) is loud. It's as loud as my Seery and has bore and tone hole sizes almost exactly the same.

I've heard from others that their Sweethearts were not so loud. I'm not sure if it's the experience of the player or that there is significant difference in some Sweethearts (I've only played mine).

My feeling playing my Sweetheart is that with the bore size and tone hole size a beginner may not get the most out of the flute and think the flute is quiet when in reality it's the embouchure or lung power behind it that isn't filling the instrument.

YMMV,

Eric

norseman · Post by **norseman** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:02 pm

Nelson, I think it would be good to start a flute physics thread. I guess one of the few times I can take off the engineer hat is when I'm actually making music.

Wormdiet, my Sweetheart isn't as loud as my M&E R&R, but it's not the nicer rosewood model. Mine is the less expensive model made of padouk. Still a nice flute, but definately not as load as my M&E. As Eric pointed out, it may be me as a player rather than the flute since I've only been playing less than a year. It's also possible that the nicer rosewood model is a slightly different design that's inherently louder.

Bob

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:10 pm

norseman wrote:Nelson, I think it would be good to start a flute physics thread. I guess one of the few times I can take off the engineer hat is when I'm actually making music.

Wormdiet, my Sweetheart isn't as loud as my M&E R&R, but it's not the nicer rosewood model. Mine is the less expensive model made of padouk. Still a nice flute, but definately not as load as my M&E. As Eric pointed out, it may be me as a player rather than the flute since I've only been playing less than a year. It's also possible that the nicer rosewood model is a slightly different design that's inherently louder.

Bob

Conversely, yeah, a lot does depend on the player.

I was in another session and one of the other guys had a Hammy. . .it didn't strike me as especially loud. THen again, there were 6 fiddlers and 2 other flutes, and a lot of sonic obstructions, so it probably doesn;t mean much.

andrewK · Post by **andrewK** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:58 am

Perhaps he wasn't a particularly loud player.

Whistlin'Dixie · Post by **Whistlin'Dixie** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:07 am

That was my thought, too.

Mary

fluti31415 · Post by **fluti31415** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:37 am

Jayhawk wrote:Wormdiet - My Sweetheart (it's one of the rosewood 4 key models - not sure if that makes a difference though) is loud. It's as loud as my Seery and has bore and tone hole sizes almost exactly the same.

YMMV,

Eric

I have a Rosewood Sweetheart 4 key also, and it's loud. Getting even louder, now that I am improving my embouchure (thanks to the posts on this list!!)