The list of Popes

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:53 am

Then maybe there's hope, amongst all the twisting, that popes and priests rights will be restored (God already allowed them to marry at one time).

Or maybe, just maybe, dedicating your life completely to God, making enormous sacrifices in the process, isn't all that bad.

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:08 am

From the Catholic Encyclopedia,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:17 am

I am not a Catholic, so I could be totally off here. But I think I have heard that there is a serious shortage of priests. I don't know if this is because of the celibacy requirement, I'm sure there are many reasons. Has the Catholic Church ever considered having two types of priests---one type which could marry and have a family and then the other traditional celibate priest?

missy · Post by **missy** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:27 am

Cynth - I don't know if the Church hierachy had considered allowing it, but I know the "rank and file" (at least a lot of the Catholics I know) think marriage should be allowed.

I come from a weird perspective. The priest who was pastor of our parish from the time I was 1 year old, left the priesthood when I was in 6th grade and married the nun that was the pricipal of our school. They were both wonderful people, and teachers, so they moved to the Cleveland area after their marriage and taught school there.
My dad was good friends with him, so they stopped by a year or so later on a visit. Here I am, 12 or 13 years old, open the door, and my mom asks from another room; "Who is it". I couldn't say "Father XXX and Sister YYY". I also couldn't bring myself to say "Mr. and Mrs. XXX". I kinda just stammered and they said "That's ok, everyone does that!".

I know many good men that left the priesthood in the late 60's early 70's. Some actually did marry, others left because they felt that they could no longer say they never wanted to marry if they happend to meet the right woman.

I also know a married priest. He grew up with my ex, and grew up Lutheran and was a Lutheran minister, married and is the father of five kids. He then converted to Catholicism. And, since he was a Lutheran minister, he also felt the calling to be a priest. And so, became a married priest!!! (I honestly don't know all the theological things that had to happen to allow this......) He taught at the local boy's high school for a time, and I thought he was probably one of the BEST for that job.

Missy

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:28 am

Cynth wrote:I am not a Catholic, so I could be totally off here. But I think I have heard that there is a serious shortage of priests. I don't know if this is because of the celibacy requirement, I'm sure there are many reasons. Has the Catholic Church ever considered having two types of priests---one type which could marry and have a family and then the other traditional celibate priest?

Number of priests in the Western world have decreased dramatically I believe, but there is a steady stream of priests coming to North America and Europe from developing countries. I saw an Irish comedian the other day talking about the change this represented in Ireland, which had always produced so many missionaries, only to see a priest show up from Nigeria to save their souls.

From personal experience, Deacons are taking on much more of a roll in the services I attend.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:40 am

Both of your comments are interesting. Also, for all I know, there may be a shortage of ministers in the Protestant churches as well. I suppose if there were two kinds of priests there could be problems with one category maybe feeling it was more authoritative (can't find the right word here) than the other. Having deacons help with more duties sounds like a good solution to the problem. It is interesting that now the priesthood is more attractive to those in developing countries----it is quite thought provoking when you ask yourself why that might be.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:13 am

It's hard for me to understand the idea that marriage is inconsistent with devoting oneself completely to God. Seems to me, this imposes a manmade preconception of what God is.

Best wishes,
Jerry

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:21 am

From the link I posted Jerry,

But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God . But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of this world how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your profit, not to cast a snare upon you, but for that which is decent and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord without impediment. (I Cor., vii, 7-8 and 32-35.)

It is not a matter of marrying being bad, it is simply about committing yourself entirely to God which you are unable to do if you are devoted to someone else. And it is important to realize that marriage is just that in teh Catholic Church, you give yourself to someone else, and they to you.

missy · Post by **missy** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:29 am

BTW - I could be mistaken, but I think in the Greek Orthodox Church, a priest can marry, but he cannot be a bishop and be married. So, that is sorta your two catagories (someome please correct me if I'm wrong).

Missy

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:43 am

OnTheMoor wrote: But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God . But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.

It is not a matter of marrying being bad, it is simply about committing yourself entirely to God which you are unable to do if you are devoted to someone else. .

The problem with this, as a response to Jerry's post, is that it assumes a conceptualization of god as something separate from one's self, one's marriage, one's spouse, one's life.
From a different pov, one might well make the point that it's in living lives of loving family members, doing our work, appreciating the universe, that we are most devoting ourselves to god.
This is kind of an apples and oranges problem.
Jerry and OTMoor seem to be operating from different frameworks, so OTMoor's points may not be valid in the physics of Jerry's framework.

OnTheMoor · Post by **OnTheMoor** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:48 am

emmline wrote:
OnTheMoor wrote: But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God . But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided.

It is not a matter of marrying being bad, it is simply about committing yourself entirely to God which you are unable to do if you are devoted to someone else. .
The problem with this, as a response to Jerry's post, is that it assumes a conceptualization of god as something separate from one's self, one's marriage, one's spouse, one's life.
From a different pov, one might well make the point that it's in living lives of loving family members, doing our work, appreciating the universe, that we are most devoting ourselves to god.
This is kind of an apples and oranges problem.
Jerry and OTMoor seem to be operating from different frameworks, so OTMoor's points may not be valid in the physics of Jerry's framework.

My response might be a problem if discussing religion and philosophy on a more general level. But I am simply trying to justify the Catholic Church's position as fitting in well with their belief system. Isn't that all you can ask of them?

rebl_rn · Post by **rebl_rn** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:08 pm

My dad is a married priest. Obviously, he's not Roman Catholic - he was an Episcopal priest for many years, now we are part of the Charismatic Episcopal Church. (BTW, he grew up Roman Catholic and was a Trappist monk for 11 years)

I understand both sides of the priests being allowed or not to marry. It should be fairly evident I think they should. One of the things my dad says about this subject is that being a priest is an extremely lonely job. Having someone by your side is almost essential, in his opinion. Also, having been married, having raised 6 kids, he feels he is more equipped to be able to counsel his parishioners when it comes to matters of marriage and family. Not that someone who isn't married can't be a great help - but having experience I think does make a difference.

I know lots of priests, married and unmarried, Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, CEC, Russian Orthodox, etc, etc. I don't know a single married priest where the fact that he was married interferred with his devotion or his vocation as a priest. But, perhaps, for some men, being married would interfere with that. That's why, I think, some of the priests I know chose not to marry even though they could. But I think people should have the choice.

Being a priest's wife, BTW, is a very tough (and lonely) job, too.

Beth

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:54 pm

Again speaking as a non-believer, I can imagine the idea that the priest is the employee of God and that he should not be splitting his time between God's flock and his own flock. For example, if a war were to break out, I imagine our President's family would be looked after by someone other than the President. The President would have to give complete attention to the country and could not be comforting his family. So it would be hard to have a family and be completely committed to a larger group. There could be a conflict of interest maybe.
Also, in observing people around me who have jobs with tremendous responsibility, I really do think that their families are not getting much of their time. The person cannot get his/her work done and spend what I would consider an adequate amount of time with his/her family.
I also wonder if the idea of priests needing to be celibate comes from an idea of sex---other than for the purpose of having children---being sinful? And in marriage one would probably be tempted to have sex not just for the purpose of having children.

I have no feelings of right or wrong here----I am just pondering a situation, I have no opinion at all about what priests or ministers should do.

missy · Post by **missy** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:08 pm

since we honestly don't know the "historical" answer to the question of why priest should or shouldn't marry............

I'm sure that your ponderings were part of it Cynth. I also think it may have something to do with when a priest had to travel a lot, and was not assigned to a parish in one spot for long periods of time (ironically, with the shortage in priests, we're going to be BACK to that situation quite soon if we already aren't in some areas). It was much easier to be a "circuit-priest" if you didn't have any family to drag along with you.

I heard an interview this moring on the radio that gave me pause. A lot of the Catholic churches (at least in the US) have been complaining of their collections being down. IF priest were to marry, would the parishoners really contribute enough to pay a priest a living, family wage - taking into account that they probably wouldn't be using birth control, so you could be talking a fairly good number of kids, too? Interesting! At least in this diocese, we didn't evidently put aside money for retirement, and with the shortage of priests and nuns still "working", each year there has to be a large special collection to help offset this.

Missy

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:19 pm

It's easier to be an openly gay man than it was a few decades ago, so many of the would-be priests in the US and other Western countries are choosing to simply live as openly gay men, rather than become celibate priests.