Who was Lilith?

Lambchop · Post by **Lambchop** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:57 am

I'm not as pale as THAT Lilith. Just as pale as Frazier Crane's ex-wife Lilith.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:58 am

Peggy wrote:I'm not as pale as THAT Lilith. Just as pale as Frazier Crane's ex-wife Lilith.

How does a person stay pale in Florida?

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:39 am

Flyingcursor wrote:Hi Ad. Thanks for the input. I was hoping you'd chime in.
Can you elaborate on the Owl association?

I can certainly try...I am by no means a "Lilith expert", as my studies are with Celtic Goddesses and archetypes.

Owls, throughout many cultures, are associated with the Feminine, and also with death. A lot of the European countries have superstitions regarding owls being a sign of a family member dying, the owl was the hieroglyph for death in Egypt, etc. Owls are not necessarily symbols of physical death, but rather the spiritually transforming death and rebirth, and the Goddesses associated with them are usually (as I said before) Initiators and catalysts. They are also, more positively, seen as wise and clear of sight... which of course, combined with the association to the Feminine, could be threatening to a patriarchal culture. <g>

There are a lot of similarities between Lilith and Blodeuwedd's myths, from what I have been able to tell. They were both "created" for men (though this is very much a surface representation-- they played active roles in their own creations, I believe, because how else could they have been Initiators?). Through a series of events they both are rebirthed--Blodeuwedd actually into the form of an owl--and they also act as catalysts for the growth and rebirth of others around them, such as the shifts that Lleu goes through because of the direct actions of Blodeuwedd. I'm assuming that Lilith's association with the owl is because of similar reasons, though the one source I had on my shelf had her being transformed into a serpent-like creature (the serpent is also a symbol of death and rebirth).

Marija Gimbutas' book, The Language of the Goddess, she has Lilith being a Mesopotamian Goddess whose name means "screech owl", but I wasn't able to find anything more specific about Lilith and her association to owls in any of my other books. I have friends who are much more well-versed regarding Lilith. Let me see what I can find out for you regarding the specific owl association and the word origins.

Oh, regarding the words with the missing vowels... Markale has them as: Senoi, Sansenoi and Samangloph.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:51 am

aderyn_du wrote:A lot of the European countries have superstitions regarding owls being a sign of a family member dying

This is also true in contemporary Cherokee society, particularly screech owls.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:23 pm

If I remember correctly, the owl (in its various forms) is the only type of bird native to all continents, isn't it?

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:35 pm

I came across an article that might be of interest, Fly. From my own knowledge of energetics and other Goddess myths, I can see how the author came to her conclusions...it made me happy that she included a bibliography, and that her sources seem to be decent.

I really liked how she associated Lilith with Air and Knowledge-- very accurate from what I've been able to discern since you brought this up earlier today, both in regards to her name origins and her associations with the owl and snake. Anyhoo, here is a link:

http://www.asphodel-long.com/html/lilith.html

Edited to add: I'm a geek. No wonder the article was so good, it was by an awesome thealogian (yes, I spelled it that way on purpose)/feminist scholar/Goddess activist.

You should check out some of her other articles if you have an interest, there looks to be some terrific ones!

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:47 pm

What are some of the primary or even secondary sources on Lillith? It seems a lot of sources of mythological knowledge are tertiary at best.

Cheers,
Aaron

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:50 pm

A great article by the same woman who wrote the Lilith article I just posted, this one talks about Graves:

http://www.asphodel-long.com/html/white_goddess.html

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:55 pm

AaronMalcomb wrote:What are some of the primary or even secondary sources on Lillith? It seems a lot of sources of mythological knowledge are tertiary at best.

Cheers,
Aaron

Aaron, it looks like the Asphodel Long article I just posted may have some primary and secondary sources re: Lilith in the bibliography.

This site also has some primary and secondary sources listed:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:59 pm

Another good article...and this author mentions the difficulty in finding primary and secondary sources.

To be sure, this is a problem with much of ancient Goddess research...many cultures, Celtic included, were oral traditions.

http://matsone.csuhayward.edu/apmj/anderson.html

" Another reason for Lilith’s obscurity stems from the lack of primary sources available for study. We are limited to a few Sumerian clay tablets and Hebrew texts. No texts exist from the pre-literate fertility cult that gave rise to Lilith, and she does not appear in any Sumerian texts besides Inanna and only once in the Bible (Isaiah 34). This forces scholars to search for Lilith in secondary sources. To further complicate matters, most of the secondary sources Lilith appears in are scholarly studies of mythology written by men before 1960, and only mention her in passing."

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:16 pm

GaryKelly wrote:Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof

Aren't they dwarves in LOTR?
Or am I confusing them with a collegiate drinking game?

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:23 pm

emmline wrote:
GaryKelly wrote:Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof
Aren't they dwarves in LOTR?
Or am I confusing them with a collegiate drinking game?

Nah, they're the three brothers who tried to colonise Vinland and get the Skraelings to set up casinos.

Lambchop · Post by **Lambchop** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:33 pm

Cranberry wrote:
Peggy wrote:I'm not as pale as THAT Lilith. Just as pale as Frazier Crane's ex-wife Lilith.
How does a person stay pale in Florida?

Don't go outside between 8 a.m. and 7 p.m.

BrassBlower · Post by **BrassBlower** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:34 pm

Nanohedron wrote:
emmline wrote:
GaryKelly wrote:Snvi, Snsvi, and Smnglof
Aren't they dwarves in LOTR?
Or am I confusing them with a collegiate drinking game?
Nah, they're the three brothers who tried to colonise Vinland and get the Skraelings to set up casinos.

http://www.dayudie.com/flash/dudpics_di ... sp?vid=182

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:40 pm

Peggy wrote:
Cranberry wrote:
Peggy wrote:I'm not as pale as THAT Lilith. Just as pale as Frazier Crane's ex-wife Lilith.
How does a person stay pale in Florida?

Don't go outside between 8 a.m. and 7 p.m.

Hehehe...I haven't gone outside for any extended periods (during summer at least) in a few years. I love my pale skin and I try not to let myself burn or brown. I think the tanned look is not only unnatural looking, but dangerous.