Why are flutes so expensive? Who Cares.

[Loren]

What are you suggesting, Loren, that a maker has to re-invest in all new tools every time he makes a flute, and that therefore the cost of tooling is a major contributor to the cost of every flute a maker produces?

As Peggy says "That absolutely doesn't matter. Granted, it's a lot of stuff, but it's not what matters."

Loren

[tin tin]

I'm not going to venture an under-educated guess at the tools required, but I will say that compared to professional quality Boehm flutes, pro-quality simple-system flutes are a bargain. Compare, say $1500-$4000 (depending on keywork) to $6000-$12,000 (or more, depending on metals) for a handmade Boehm flute. And perfectly good simple-system flutes are available for under $1000.

[I.D.10-t]

I always thought that you were paying someone else to make mistakes!

You know, not just paying for the flute, but paying for all the destroyed pieces of wood before that.

This is part in jest, but part in truth, let me explain, If I could make a flute in 20 tries for less than the price of 20 wood blanks, I would try and the price I would be willing to pay for a flute of such quality. Now the longer a person has been making flutes (hopefully) he makes fewer major mistakes and starts making smaller and smaller ones. All the sudden it would take me at least 40 wood blanks to get to the same point so I pay more. After a certain pint I could not make something better for cheaper without sponsorship and so I start selling my first “Okay” flutes in hopes that I can make one that I like and, low and behold, I have become a flute maker.

The other thing is that the more you work with a material the better you understand it. Mistakes in metal are different than mistakes in wood. Wood has grain, most metals will not, this will effect how you treat things.

Maybe someone can say it more eloquently than I can, but this is how I see the cost. It has nothing to do with the tools that can be used to make thousands of flutes. A computer hard drive has many parts that need to be machined to a high level of precision (think nanometers or less) and the tooling needed is very expensive, but hard drives are cheap because of the number of times that the equipment is used to make hard drives. Continuing on this train of thought, a mass produced Boehm would cost much more to tool up for than any of the simple system flutes. The problem is that when craftsmanship is involved, you set up a problem of supply and demand. Because there is only one person making a certain name of flutes, you just can’t crank out thousands of flutes and drive the costs per flute down.

It is kind of funny in a way because when Concertinas were popular they were mass produced for affordable prices, much the iPod of the day, but now all you could hope to do is find a used one and have it rebuilt. (do not play one just what I heard)

So if you want flute prices to go down, teach someone the Irish flute and create more demand. Someday you too could be playing Irish music on a Yamaha simple system.

Or play the piccolo (they are usually cheaper)

[andrewK]

You remind me of the time some years ago when the Japanese decided to take over the world's best maker of trumpet mouthpieces.
On asking to see the production facilities they were taken down his garden path to his small shed.
They had to rethink their plans!

[Byron]

I agree with TinTin.
Irish flutes are dang cheap. Wouldn't the cost of a professional level violin bow get you a concert level flute? At least one?

I wonder if the fact that the best flutes are so affordable doesn't hurt the overall flute scene by shifting the focus away from the music.

I sometimes think we jump around too much. I had two years on my Dixon before I got my Reviol, and in truth the Dixon is still capable of more than I am.

But, I do cruise the makers pages with a dream of a medium holed six-key...

I don't know, what was the question?
How many tools? More than I have.

Peace
Byron

[I.D.10-t]

I actually tried to make a fife or two a while back. Where I went to take classes (The University of Minnesota) had several machine shops. One of them allowed me to use the lath and drill press for my project . All I really needed was the materials.

Trying to hack together some pieces on your lunch break and early in the morning is no way to build anything. In the end no cost for tooling, but the cost of a good fife in materials, and nothing that sounded or looked like a fife. I think next time I try to make a fife or piccolo I’m just going to make a head and attach it to a Clarke SweeTone or Generation body.

[chas]

I agree with TinTin.
Irish flutes are dang cheap. Wouldn't the cost of a professional level violin bow get you a concert level flute? At least one?

I wonder if the fact that the best flutes are so affordable doesn't hurt the overall flute scene by shifting the focus away from the music.

The point about a bow is a good one. The rule of thumb is that the bow should cost about as much as the instrument -- so the bow that you get for the amount of a top keyless flute would go with a violin in the thousand-dollar range. Fiddles get WAY more expensive.

I'm guilty of having the flute-acquisition bug. With the whistle, it was some time after I'd bought the first dozen or two before I realized that my collecting was kind of a mask for my lack of ability. But I'm really busting my ass to learn the flute, to the point of taking vacation time to go to a teacher who is an hour away and only teaches during working hours.

[David Levine]

Aside from a whistle a fiddle/bow combination is really the cheapest Irish instrument. With some luck you can still find a playable used fiddle and bow for a couple of hundred dollars. Compare that to the cost of a concertina, a set of pipes, a flute, or an accordion.
Many good Irish fiddlers are playing inexpensive fiddles. On a professional level many violins are bought and sold on the basis of how they look rather than how they play.

[Cathy Wilde]

... On a professional level many violins are bought and sold on the basis of how they look rather than how they play.

What is WITH that? I run into it with Larry all the time ... "I'll go 'oooooh, that fiddle she's playing sounds AWESOME!" and he'll say "yeah, but it doesn't have as pretty a stain/grain/flamed back/chin rest/tuning pegs (or whatever the h***) as mine." And meanwhile, EVERYONE hates his fiddle; it doesn't matter that he coughed up $3500 for it; it sounds so awful I can't stand to look at it so who cares if it's pretty? And then he can pick up a student fiddle or something he found in a pawnshop for $300 and sound terrific on it, but will he give up the lame $3500 fiddle? Noooooo, because the B fiddle is too dark-colored or something ridiculous like that, even though it sounds a million percent better.

ARGH! That drives me crazy! I mean, beauty is as beauty does and all, but this I completely do not understand. You can't see the stain or grain or pegs from 50 feet away anyway, but you sure can hear the result.

BTW, I agree Irish flutes are totally reasonable. But then again, I'm coming at this from the world of show horses, where the price of an Olwell will rarely even buy you the poop-end of a reasonable-quality show beastie.

And thank goodness we don't have to feed flutes, either.

[Loren]

How many tools does it take to make a 5 piece keyless flute?

That absolutely doesn't matter. Granted, it's a lot of stuff, but it's not what matters.

I've used lathes and reamers, drills and sandpaper, and passably well at that, but all you'd get from me is a stick with holes in it. Even with practice, if I was able to produce a really nice looking stick, it would still just be a stick.

It's the ability to make it able to sing that's the hard part--getting the fairies to move back in.

That's what you pay for, not the stick.

Hmm yes, a wonderful romantic notion indeed. Nothing to do with reality of course, but a lovely notion.....

Loren

[Dana]

On a professional level many violins are bought and sold on the basis of how they look rather than how they play.

Is this in the Irish scene, or what? I've never known a professional violinist that bought their violin based primarily on how it looked. (Of course, I'm acquainted with classical violinists, not fiddlers).

Dana

[Loren]

Just to clarify: Obviously there are many things that factor into the cost of making an instrument (and selling it at a price which assures you can stay in business for more than a week), however my point here was to simply have a little fun and provide some insight (from the maker's perspective) into the process.

Loren

[andrewK]

I have just read a fair selection of nonsense.
It never has been the case that the recommended price for a bow is that of a violin it is to go with .
Remember when Menhuin bought his first Strad ?
He was given a fine Tourte. Quality the same .Value a small fraction.
I make bows, but would not expect a player to match a £4000 bow with a £4000 violin necessarily. £20,000 + more likely.
I have a £10,000 + cello bow, but a collector would buy it, or someone with better than a £10,000 'cello !
Loren seems to forget, from his sweatshop that good makers take years of practice, study and whatever they need to become good, and in those long years are acquiring rejecting and refining their equipment. Building it up slowly as they see opportunities and learn to use the stuff.
They make a lot of what they really need, and tend to spend their time using the same favourite bits.
Biggest problem, I reckon is the time needed to invest in making reamers if ones ideas on models or modifications are to be realised.
I doubt if the old fellows had great piles of gear, but few of them ever forged a good key. When they did they used a moderate amount of gear and a good eye.
Ward and Hudson were the mirscle workers, with some mystery ( perhaps out) workers at Rudalls doing the good stuff !
Apart from the fantastic Potters, of course, but not as keymakers !

[Loren]

Andrew, perhaps you were typing your last as I was posting my previous.

Never mind, I really shouldn't take seriously the ramblings of one who has yet to make a decent instrument....

As for your sweatshop comment, perhaps you'd like to elaborate?


Loren

[andrewK]

Some poor fellow is aspiring to a six key flute.
I bought what I expect to be a French one last night on the internet for $60. May not be wonderful, but I bet it won't be so bad either. It won't come for a few days.
I have had a few of late, pretty cheap too. No need to lay out much.
He should be more positive in his thinking.
If he were to acquire a cheapish sound French flute he might discover that they tended not to send out junk, so a repadding and if necessary a little superglue could keep him happy for years !