Irish vs Scottish whistle style

[walrii]

Excuse the typo, it should read 'teaching grandma to suck eggs' which basically means 'teaching something to somebody that they already know' It may be a local expression and I didn't think of my audience!

It was a common expression in the southern US some years ago, though less so now that we've standardized our regional dialects through the influence of the almighty tube.

[Colin]

Thanks for your comments, Kenny. I play highland pipes as well as flute and whistle. The fingering for pipes and whistle is similar. If the tunes don't have low G in them I can finger tunes more-or-less the same. But a lot of great tunes have lots of low G and need to be played note-for-note. Cheers,
Aaron

Aaron,
some whistle makers offer the option of drilling a seventh hole so
the low C natural is available. If you had a Bflat whistle with the seventh
hole drilled you could play all pipe tunes note for note, and hey, you could
even play along with recordings of yourself on pipes, although of course
there might be some slight volume disparity !!!
I don't recollect any of the makers who offer this but I'm sure others on
this board can supply that info.

Cheers,

Colin

[kenny]

Fit like, Jack ? - aye, I remember you well from "Setanta". I was reminding Dick Glasgow over in Antrim to get in touch with you about a hammered dulcimer festival he's organising in the summer. Favourite pipe tunes for whistle which are fairly well-known and commonly played ?
You could do worse than try the following 10 :
Reels - "Sound Of Sleat" , "Blackberry Bush" : Jigs - "Curlew' , "The Snuff Wife" : Hornpipes - "Dr.McInnes Fancy" , "Duncan Johnstone" : Strathspeys - "Caberfeidh" , "The Ewie Wi' The Crookit Horn" 6/8 March - "Bonawe Highlanders" : 2/4 March - "Donald McLean's Farewell To Oban"
Thanks to “Cynth” for the link about recording MP3s on computer - I will have a look at that. As always, it will be a question of finding time, but if I can, I will.
“Squeaker” – you need a whistle in the key of “D”. I’m about to e-mail you with some advice on that.
As far as books are concerned, I would recommend the tune books by Chrissie Martin on the Isle Of Skye – titles are “Ceol Na Fidhle”. There are now I think 5 of them, but I’d need to check on which I think is the best.

[AaronMalcomb]

Thanks, Colin. There is one whistlemaker (Sandy Jasper at Elfsong) that makes a "chanter whistle" which has the same fingering as a chanter but that would be cheating. I just need to resign myself to the fact that I have to either rearrange tunes with low G or learn to play them notewise.

Kenny, "Dr. McInnes" is a mighty tune. That along with "Duncan Johnstone" are two classic hornpipes from Donald MacLeod. "P/M George Allan" is another great tune from Donald MacLeod and "Susan MacLeod" is a very popular strathspey too.

Cheers,
Aaron

[demon_piper]

The Scottish whistle style is very much influenced by our piping, as is the flute playing style. Even though the Irish flute and piping styles are actually somewhat different, that is less the case with Scottish music. The pipes employ a very formalized gracing system, using 16th and 32nd notes all over the place. Some of the movements also involve multiple gracenotes from the upper part of the register while manouevering between several of the lower notes.

Our gracings often involve what we call doublings which involve a high gracenote, a brief pause and then the note directly below it and above the note which is being played. As opposed to Grey Larsen's suggestion that it should be the two notes separated by one note from the note being played. Which does sound edgier, but doesn't blend quite as well.

The tendency to use breathing and tongueing is actually often less in the Scottish whistle style.

Basically, the style mimics the fiddle and pipes in sound.

Beannacht leat

[kenny]

So can you name me some "Scottish Style" whistle players and "Scottish style" flute players, demon-piper?

[AaronMalcomb]

The Scottish whistle style is very much influenced by our piping, as is the flute playing style. Even though the Irish flute and piping styles are actually somewhat different, that is less the case with Scottish music. The pipes employ a very formalized gracing system, using 16th and 32nd notes all over the place. Some of the movements also involve multiple gracenotes from the upper part of the register while manouevering between several of the lower notes.

Our gracings often involve what we call doublings which involve a high gracenote, a brief pause and then the note directly below it and above the note which is being played. As opposed to Grey Larsen's suggestion that it should be the two notes separated by one note from the note being played. Which does sound edgier, but doesn't blend quite as well.

Scottish piping ornamentation is just as the name describes. It doesn't quite perform the same rhythmic function as flute/whistle ornamentation. Ornamental notes are only notated as 32nd and 16th notes. We don't really measure the time.

The structure of a doubling depends on the note. On Low G up through C you cut the melody note with the left index finger (High G gracenote) then cut it again with the right index (D gracenote). Doublings on D, E and F are as you stated, start with the L1 cut followed by cutting with the note above it (E, F, and High G respectively). High G and High doublings are different. For High you start by cutting F then quickly go up to High G. High A doublings are actually just a tap. Because of my piping I am more apt to cut with my GDE fingers as those are the basis for a lot of piping ornamentation.

I would have to disagree with your doubling theory. You really do need to hear the melody note in between the grace notes. If I'm playing a C doubling I want to hear that wee bit of C in between the High G and D gracenotes, especially on the end phrase of a 2/4 march where you want that extra punch. Making sure that note is audible allows the doubling to be clean and distinct. The trick is doing it deftly so as not to slow yourself down.

I'm with Kenny... I'd like some names of exponents of the Scottish flute and whistle style.

Cheers,
Aaron

[cowtime]

I too would be intrested in hearing some Scottish style whistle playing.

As a whistler who also plays pipes (GHB,shuttlepipes) and Scottish Tenor Drum, I find the band tunes are remarkably easy to play on whistle. In fact sometimes if I'm in a mood , I'll play a tune on the whistle that they've been agonizing on in chanter practice. (you understand of course, that I'm not doing those throws, taorluaths, etc. :roll: .

The first time I tried a pipe tune on whistle I was playing The Foggy Dew and just went straight into Cock O the North for some reason. It seemed to me to fit so now every time I play them together.

[brianholton]

Some Scottish whistlers: the late Tony Cuffe, Alex Green and Norman Chalmers of Jock Tamson's Bairns come to mind, but listen to bands like Old Blind Dogs, the Battlefield Band, or The Tannahill Weavers and you'll hear a lot of whistle playing.

Mind you, with the exception of the first 3, a lot of Scottish whistle players are pipers (GHB), so play with pipe gracenotes, and use no tonguing at all.

Once you know what to listen for, it's obvious when it's a piper playing the whistle.

On the other hand, there are a lot of players in Scotland who play a more or less pure Irish style: like myself, many of us have a lot of Irish blood in our veins.

[CHIFF FIPPLE]

True, but thats so yesterday :roll:
The young and up comming players, like Mathue Watson, are all useing the whistle as a whistle and not as a charnter, so all the tricks of the tounge are in there bag.

[Impempe]

I have come into this thread rather late, having been on a camping trip. Great discussions and advice. Having played the GHB for a couple years now, but being in a house where it was played constantly for 20 years(no wonder my hearing is not so good), the scottish influence in the whistle playing has definately taken preference to the irish trad stuff. I traded with Sandy Jasper at Elfsong for a chanter whistle a while back, but was not really happy with the playing of GHB tunes onto the whistle. The doublings and gracenotes are not as crisp and take a huge amount of breath control to get an acceptable tune. I think I will need to spend a lot of time on "learning" to play that whistle even tho the fingering is the same, the holes are of course in a different position to the chanter and take a lot of getting used to - the birl is not possible. I prefer by far to play with the Eb or Bb depending on the tune. Some scottish tunes that I have found work well and are simple begginers ones are: The Skye Boat song, The piper of Drummond, Highland Cathedral, Loudens Bonnie Woods and Braes, We're no' awa' tae bide awa', The dark Isle and Colonel Macleod amongst others.

It is nice to know that there is a style of music that I have been gravitating to already other than ITM

I have found that you can play along with whistles and GHB and not have the volume problem by swopping the GHB for the electronic Deger Pipes. These change from GHB to Smallpipes sound with the switch of a button and sound wonderful with whistles, but I digress.

Thanks Kenny, Aaron and others - great posts.

[Craig Stuntz]

There was a tutor for Scottish whistle written some years ago, but it was half in Gaelic, and I’ve never seen it in the shops. I think it was written by Davy Garrett, who is a piper who used to teach around Inverness.

I found a link for a shop that sells it and discussed it here. But I've never seen a copy personally, so I don't know if the shop listing is current.

[fancypiper]

Most of the Scottish tunes that I play seem to be more "chordal" in strucure than the Irish tunes which seem to feature more "runs" up and down the "mode" you are playing in.

To play with the Scottish fiddlers, most of the tunes seem to be in A mixedupolodian, which wouln't really follow the fingering of the GHB.

Some whistle makers make whistles with a flatted 7th hole for the bottom hand pinkie and a thumbhole for the GHB "high G".

I just saw a whistle maker's site, but I didn't bookmark it.