How well should I play a tune before moving on?

[Cayden]

and staying in Doolin for 3 of the 6 nights I'll be there. Where's the craic?

The craic in Doolin is not everybody's cupan tae. Plenty of good music around the West though.

[jim stone]

Do you know a nice list of arpeggios?

For purposes of Irish music, it's good to be familiar with these:

D: D F# A d f# a d'
Em: E G B e g b
G: D G B d g b d'
A: E A c# e a c#'
Am: E A c e a c'
Bm: D F# B d f# b d'
C: E G c e g c'
D7: D F# A c d f# a c'
A7: E G A c# e g a c#'

If you can identify all the arpeggios in all the tunes you play as you're playing them, you're pretty much master of the universe. You can play variations, whip out harmony lines, recover gracefully from mistakes, tell clueless accompanists the right chords to play, come up with interesting cool ways of putting tunes together, and generally play with a much greater degree of understanding.

Thanks!

[fyffer]

and staying in Doolin for 3 of the 6 nights I'll be there. Where's the craic?

The craic in Doolin is not everybody's cupan tae. Plenty of good music around the West though.

Would you explain that a bit? I had heard that Doolin was *the* place for ITM, though a bit later I'd heard that it has gotten too touristy and the real musicians have moved on.

What's the straight dope (Seeing as you're from Co. Clare, I hope you'd know)?

Thanks!

[burrenbabe]

So, BurrenBabe - do you actually live in the Burren area? I'm going to be in Ireland over St. Patrick's Day for a week, and staying in Doolin for 3 of the 6 nights I'll be there. Where's the craic? It would be nice to meet/play with another C&F'er who knows where to go.[/quote]

Sorry, I live about 5 hours from Clare - different Burren believe it or not there are 2 in Ireland - small as it is!!

[Azalin]

as long as you don't intend to play with people who are much more advanced than you.......my general philophy is that you should only join a session when you're no going to make the music worse

I think that this sort of response to the question, is most certainly going to put off any potential "newbie" from joining sessions. How is one ever supposed to improve if they don't play with musicians more experienced than themselves? There is ALWAYS going to be SOMEONE who is better at playing/phrasing/ornamentation than you, or me or Matt Malloy for that matter! In joining in with sessions a "newbie" will gain confidence and get invaluable information and practice that is just not possible while sitting at the kitchen table playing by yourself! As far as making the music "worse" is concerned, well that is ALWAYS a matter of opinion - some of the best players go to a session drink too much and end up sounding like a scrawny cat (just 4uMoxy! )& a banshee having a fight!

Hey, I'm not going to argue with Mike McHale's niece, that's for sure! You pretty much share Moxy's point of view. The problem here in Montreal is that most sessions are for beginners to intermediate. I don't think it's fair. I think it's true that newbies should be able to join sessions, but also true that more advanced players should have a chance to play their tunes together. Maybe you can call me snob or selfish or worse, but after listening to sessions last july with Mary Bergin, Brian McNamara, June McCormak and husband Michael Rooney, Mike McHake, it's really not to want to try to create that same level of music they were playing. When those guyz were having their session, no beginner sat down there. Why? Because it was their thing, their moment, and also the audience's right to listen to this amazing music. There were other sessions in town were you could join in if you wanted to.

I think it's fair to ask for the right balance between being welcoming to beginners and also wanting to play with more advanced people. It's like last time I went cross country skiing. I went with my girlfriend and I knew she couldnt ski pretty well. So most of the time I was there waiting up a small hill, sometimes for 15 minutes, for her to catch up and actually find the way to go up. We were sharing a good time and it was well worth it, but I didnt really sweat at all, and it wasnt really an exercize for me. Fair enough, this coming week-end we're gonna go ski again and I'm gonna go on my own on harder roads while she goes in beginners, 'cause this time I wanna push it to my full potential. Next time I'll probably just ski with her again. I think that's fair, and I think it's fair to ask the same from sessions and beginners. Let's share some good time, but also understand that at one point more advanced people sometimes want to play with each other only.

Is that fair? Darn, did I argue with you babe of the barrens? [/i]

[kburget]

Two points Bill Ochs himself is fond of dwelling on (and I hope he won't mind my sharing):

1) Speed slows progress.
2) Practice makes permanent.

In other words, learn it slow and learn it right, or you may find yourself ingraining bad habits that are very hard to undo. Forget about speed. If it comes at all, and that's quite a relative and subjective matter anyway, it will come on its own in the fullness of time.

[burrenbabe]

Why didn't ya just say that in the first place Azalin!! :roll:

I just didn't want you puttin the poor "crater" off before they got goin! Over here (Ire.) there, as far as I am aware are not sessions for beginner, intermediate, advanced, professional or whatever, you go out to find a session, plonk urself down and try to join in; if the craic's not good or the others are too advanced and no compromise is forthcoming or help available then you sit and listen/record or trundle on down to the next pub!! I have on a couple of occasions seen "Private Session" in which case the players are seen as the entertainment and no one expects to walk in and be able to play with them any more than they would jump up onstage with the Chieftans and ask to join!

My only question to you would be how du know when you are good enough to join in with the Mary Bergin's/Mike McHales of this world? I'm not a good player, there are some tunes I play better than others and recently someone (whom we all know but shall remain nameless!)I sent a recording of my playing to, thought it was Mike McHale playing!! LOL & boy will he be insulted when he finds that out!! But I could know maybe half a dozen tunes really well and be able to join in with a group of musicians to play them, if I played each as well as the "Mike sounding" one, surely they would think I was too good for them when in fact I see myself as a complete beginner with limited ability, a handful of tunes and little confidence when it comes to joining in?! Yes? No? Maybe?

Perhaps the problem is we Irish drink more and really don't care who plays in what we, in our inebriated state think was the best session ever!!! (Until we listen to the recording the next day that is!!)

[Azalin]

Hehe good post and I don't really have answers to your questions. I guess it depends on so many factors that you can't really have one specific course of action for every situation. There are beginners out there who would join a session with very advanced players like Mary Bergin and the rest without having a clue, with the other musicians smiling at each other and finally packing when they had enough. It happened a few times while I was sitting listening to those folks. So when and what and who, well, it all depends on what your personality is like.

It's quite possible that you play one of your clip like Mike McHale, or it's quite possible that the person who listened to your clip didnt really get the very special and subtle phrasing of Mike that makes his music so amazing, and thus didnt see the difference. Maybe you send me the clip and I can see by myself Who am I to say anyway, if I can only have half of Mike's lift and swing and natural life to my music before I die, I'll die quite happy.

By the way, I learned a few tunes from a small session with Mick O'Briain and Mike McHale and Benedict this week, and I'm just amazed everytime at how innocent Mike's playing is, how pure and natural. There's no influence outside the ITM world in his music, it flows so well and the lift is so touching. Mick O'Briain is an amazing pipe and flute player, but even Mick's playing is a little too much technical, if I can say so. Amazing playing, but doesnt touch me as much as Mike's music.

[burrenbabe]

Well then, perhaps we can do a swap! I'll send you mine if you send me yours!! I take it you recorded the session? :roll:

[talasiga]

I am using the Bill Ochs whistle tutorial for learning flute. He plays many of the tunes very fast, which is not easy for a newbie to attempt on whistle, but even more difficult to replicate on flute. I find myself gasping for air trying to keep up.

Anyway, I am itching to try ornamentation, but find myself playing over and over the tunes before the section on ornamentation to try and perfect those. Should I just give up trying to match the speed and wondrous phrasing of Bill's playing and just go to ornamentation already?

For beginners:-

practise songline and ornamentation without regard for speed and
practise speed without regard for accuracy in songline and ornamentation.

Later the two shall meet.

[mimcgann]

I haven't written on chiff before--just have enjoyed reading the posts.

Anyway, just thought I'd add something about the question of a beginner/less advanced player joining in a more advanced session.

I took lessons with Jack Coen for a while, and he would always say that it's better to play with musicians who are better than you, that that's the only way you'll improve--besides practicing, natch. While it's arguable that it might not be true for the better player (who has to suffer ), I believe that it is beneficial to the beginner. Caveat: Provided that the beginner is aware of his/her limitations, plays when it is appropriate (per the session's rules), plays (and acts) with respect, and REALLY listens to others and to his/her own playing--ie, not a total idjit.

I know that when I play with better players my playing just blossoms (or at least brightens) with clarity and confidence. I have something to aim for and can see (glimpse) my potential. (Of course, just because a player is "technically" better doesn't mean he/she's better and worth it the bother.)

And, just thinking about ornaments, coming from the whistle (as a lot of people), and from Bill Ochs, some ornamentation just naturally creeps in my playing without thought, just as you would turn a phrase when speaking. Cuts and taps and stops just help the punctuation so that the melody becomes more clear and doesn't trip on itself.

(And, just to mention Mike McHale, I love his phrasing, and I love how he helps the individual player find what works for him/her, making the tune more personal and special. Can't wait for his class this summer in the Catskills!

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Mike

[moxy]

Maybe you can call me snob or selfish or worse, but after listening to sessions last july with Mary Bergin, Brian McNamara, June McCormak and husband Michael Rooney, Mike McHake, it's really not to want to try to create that same level of music they were playing. When those guyz were having their session, no beginner sat down there. Why?

Um, if I recall, that was a "listening" session. You couldn't join it.

It was a brilliant session though. I remember, it was in a tiny room, and we managed to get two chairs at the back of the room, and you stood in the coat check doorway, next to Mary Bergin, to record the session (I was just listening to it, by the way, good stuff!!)

[burrenbabe]

Thats just a gorgous cat Moxy!!!

[andrewK]

I seem to be able to see your shirt through the cat's head !
Is ir a cardboard cutout ?

[burrenbabe]

I seem to be able to see your shirt through the cat's head !
Is ir a cardboard cutout ?

I think that's it's WEIRD light-up eyes!!! Uno cats eyes?? LOL - so funny!!!