Hello--I will try to be clear about this problem. I have been practicing fairly diligently since September. I now have a Burke pro High D brass with black tip.
Okay.
1. I have noticed that my whistle is turning in my hands so that the holes, rather than being aligned with the middle of my nose, are aligned more with my left nostril. This, I believe, must be because my right wrist (my right hand being the bottom hand) does not have to make such a such a sharp bend when holding the whistle. I straighten the whistle out when I notice this but it just always goes back to that position. It is a more comfortable position, it is not making it harder to play I don't believe. But I could be wrong. This position does make it so that I am covering the holes closer to the ends of my fingers than with the part of my finger that is between the tip and the first knuckle. Possibly I can feel the holes better when I touch them with the part of my finger closer to the tip. But I realize that this is not necessary. I cannot remember if this happened with the Susato I started out on.
2. This would not bother me too much except that the mouthpiece is also rotating. I see clear evidence that I must be blowing a fair amount to the right of center (since the whistle is rotating to the left) of the mouthpiece because there is an arc of patina on the brass below the black material which is not centered on the mouthpiece but is very much to the right side of it (as I look down the whistle when it is in my mouth).
3. I went and looked in a mirror, trying to hold my typical position, and I do not look like the pictures of what you should look like. The whistle is not straight down in front of me as it should be and is being held at an angle, in addition to the rotation.
4. I have tried rotating the mouthpiece a bit so that I am blowing down the exact center of it, thinking that this would be quite important. But then I felt I might be getting into some horrible habit. I didn't really leave it that way long enough to see if the sound was better.
So----
Has anyone ever heard of this problem? Are there people whose hands simply require a slight rotation of the whistle holes? Am I right in thinking that blowing right down the center of the mouthpiece is extremely important? Should I even be seeing this arc of patina at the bottom of the black tip or does that mean that I am not sealing my lips adequately? Should I attempt to rotate the mouthpiece so that I am blowing right down the center of the mouthpiece? Should I attempt to force myself to not let the whistle rotate while I am playing it? HELP!
The biggest problem I seem to have in my playing is that I can't control my breath, I can't blow gently enough or consistently. I also get thunking and kissing sounds, which I think have to do with sloppy fingering and with blowing too hard. I am not sure that my odd position is actually causing these problems, although it might. But if my hand hurts, that is not good either. I just don't know what to do. Also, I do find that I don't get a consistent sound from certain notes, and this might well be caused by my odd position I suppose. The low D and E, the C natural in particular drive me crazy.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Beginner needs advice---not for the faint-hearted
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Miwokhill
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Cynth, I really don't know what to suggest to correct your problem, I really don't - but I'll give you some feedback just as if we were having a casual conversation about this. That is, I don't want to act like I have the answer to the twisting whistle or even the inconsistent blowing because I don't. This is just more like 'I dunno, maybe it's...'
Actually I had a little twisting thing happening for a while. I think it may have been practicing too much and getting a little fatigued and then maybe holding onto the whistle too tightly. This seems like it might hold the whistle quite in place but I think it ended up almost torquing it into twisting. The inconsistent blowing perhaps is a similar problem. That is, playing and trying too hard. Sometimes this can make you get worse rather than better. Also, when you get a certain amount of proficiency with an instrument your standards get tougher and you're harder on yourself. So you'll naturally think you're getting worse because instead of being a smart first grader you all of a sudden encounter long division and you feel dumb.
Both the blowing and twisting problem could be partly what I'm suggesting, over-practicing and over-exertion and symptoms of a larger problem: not relaxing. Playing music is supposed to be fun, like singing a little song while taking a walk, not like an audition for American Idol. Take a deep breath, relax and don't be so hard on yourself. Maybe taking a little break for a few days once in awhile could help. When I was first learning fiddle I was teaching myself with the help of various videos etc. and I kept a notebook of questions and issues I had with playing. I think this wasn't a bad idea but eventually most of my questions got resolved just from experience. When you're first learning something you can actually try to hard and that will hamper your efforts. Maybe like swimming, you can kick and thrash but it's more about relaxing, letting go, and flowing with it. --Like I said though, I'm not sure if this is it, this is more of just feedback --I think the problems will work themselves out, that is, you'll work them out in time.--- I do think you may be putting too much pressure on yourself and that's causing much of this; so relax and have fun! -mike --- p.s. After posting this I see your responses to a couple of similar threads-- I think you've answered your own questions better than I have. Then again, this wasn't meant to be sage advice, just my 2 cents.
Actually I had a little twisting thing happening for a while. I think it may have been practicing too much and getting a little fatigued and then maybe holding onto the whistle too tightly. This seems like it might hold the whistle quite in place but I think it ended up almost torquing it into twisting. The inconsistent blowing perhaps is a similar problem. That is, playing and trying too hard. Sometimes this can make you get worse rather than better. Also, when you get a certain amount of proficiency with an instrument your standards get tougher and you're harder on yourself. So you'll naturally think you're getting worse because instead of being a smart first grader you all of a sudden encounter long division and you feel dumb.
Both the blowing and twisting problem could be partly what I'm suggesting, over-practicing and over-exertion and symptoms of a larger problem: not relaxing. Playing music is supposed to be fun, like singing a little song while taking a walk, not like an audition for American Idol. Take a deep breath, relax and don't be so hard on yourself. Maybe taking a little break for a few days once in awhile could help. When I was first learning fiddle I was teaching myself with the help of various videos etc. and I kept a notebook of questions and issues I had with playing. I think this wasn't a bad idea but eventually most of my questions got resolved just from experience. When you're first learning something you can actually try to hard and that will hamper your efforts. Maybe like swimming, you can kick and thrash but it's more about relaxing, letting go, and flowing with it. --Like I said though, I'm not sure if this is it, this is more of just feedback --I think the problems will work themselves out, that is, you'll work them out in time.--- I do think you may be putting too much pressure on yourself and that's causing much of this; so relax and have fun! -mike --- p.s. After posting this I see your responses to a couple of similar threads-- I think you've answered your own questions better than I have. Then again, this wasn't meant to be sage advice, just my 2 cents.
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BillChin
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Cynth,
You have a lot going on, and a lot of analysis. My suggestion would be to focus on breathing and being comfortable. Sometimes I pick up a whistle and every note sounds sour even though I've been playing for over a decade, with intonation being a strength. I fall back to closing my eyes and getting one pure note out, usually the low F or G. It may take a little while. After that I work up and down the scale before trying to play a song. You mentioned three specific notes that sound off to you. I would spend some time on those. On getting those notes to sound as pure as you can and hold them for some time. Close your eyes, focus on your breath, relax the muscles a bit, and trust your ears.
You have a Burke--they have a reputation for being well tuned and forgiving to play. However you hold the whistle, if you can coax music out of it and feel comfortable, I would go with that. If focusing on posture, alignment, rotation and all of that seems useful, go for it. However, it sounds like it is more of a distraction than a help. Some simple exercises such as stretching your fingers and then clenching them to a fist, or squeezing a tennis ball, might be helpful.
I'm not sure what kind of practice you are doing. It makes a difference. Trumpet player Eddie Lewis has an excellent essay about practice:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... cedure.htm
The keeping score essay is an eye opener and counter-intuitive, but it makes a lot of sense when I think about it:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... gscore.htm
I would wager that the vast majority of beginners practice the way Mr. Lewis first describes. My church choir director uses the second method of isolating phrases and repeating the correct performance, over and over and over.
Mr. Lewis has about 50 other essays on music topics, well worth looking at:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... ssions.htm
Whatever you do, enjoy your music. Few are going to be recording in studio, and even for most of those, music is a hobby.
+ Bill
You have a lot going on, and a lot of analysis. My suggestion would be to focus on breathing and being comfortable. Sometimes I pick up a whistle and every note sounds sour even though I've been playing for over a decade, with intonation being a strength. I fall back to closing my eyes and getting one pure note out, usually the low F or G. It may take a little while. After that I work up and down the scale before trying to play a song. You mentioned three specific notes that sound off to you. I would spend some time on those. On getting those notes to sound as pure as you can and hold them for some time. Close your eyes, focus on your breath, relax the muscles a bit, and trust your ears.
You have a Burke--they have a reputation for being well tuned and forgiving to play. However you hold the whistle, if you can coax music out of it and feel comfortable, I would go with that. If focusing on posture, alignment, rotation and all of that seems useful, go for it. However, it sounds like it is more of a distraction than a help. Some simple exercises such as stretching your fingers and then clenching them to a fist, or squeezing a tennis ball, might be helpful.
I'm not sure what kind of practice you are doing. It makes a difference. Trumpet player Eddie Lewis has an excellent essay about practice:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... cedure.htm
The keeping score essay is an eye opener and counter-intuitive, but it makes a lot of sense when I think about it:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... gscore.htm
I would wager that the vast majority of beginners practice the way Mr. Lewis first describes. My church choir director uses the second method of isolating phrases and repeating the correct performance, over and over and over.
Mr. Lewis has about 50 other essays on music topics, well worth looking at:
http://www.eddielewis.com/trumpet/essay ... ssions.htm
Whatever you do, enjoy your music. Few are going to be recording in studio, and even for most of those, music is a hobby.
+ Bill
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Wombat
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Unless I'm missing something, I can't see why you think you have a problem. Some days, on some whistles, I'm having a little trouble getting a seal. I just rotate the body until I'm comfortable. I have no idea why this happens and I don't really care.
The great sax player, Lester Young, used to rotate the mouthpiece about 45 degrees. Most people would find this very uncomfortable but it worked for him.
The great sax player, Lester Young, used to rotate the mouthpiece about 45 degrees. Most people would find this very uncomfortable but it worked for him.
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buddhu
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And don't worry about the whistle not being straight out in front. Many players (especially those who perform in front of a mic) play with the whistle angled off to one side a little. So long as you can play it and you don't drop it I wouldn't sweat it.
As for the instrument twisting, perhaps you could try one of the methods of stablising the whistle during play: either keeping your right 3rd finger on the lowest hole while playing other notes (where possible, of course - you have to move it for some low notes) or keeping your right hand pinkie on the tube just below the bottom hole.
Also, if your hand is hurting try practising slowly. You'll tense up less. Make a conscious effort to notice when you get tense and grip hard.
Hope it comes together for you.
As for the instrument twisting, perhaps you could try one of the methods of stablising the whistle during play: either keeping your right 3rd finger on the lowest hole while playing other notes (where possible, of course - you have to move it for some low notes) or keeping your right hand pinkie on the tube just below the bottom hole.
Also, if your hand is hurting try practising slowly. You'll tense up less. Make a conscious effort to notice when you get tense and grip hard.
Hope it comes together for you.
And whether the blood be highland, lowland or no.
And whether the skin be black or white as the snow.
Of kith and of kin we are one, be it right, be it wrong.
As long as our hearts beat true to the lilt of a song.
And whether the skin be black or white as the snow.
Of kith and of kin we are one, be it right, be it wrong.
As long as our hearts beat true to the lilt of a song.
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Guest
Re: Beginner needs advice---not for the faint-hearted
Cynth wrote:Hello--I will try to be clear about this problem. I havea Burke pro High D brass with black tip.
Okay.
..had a Susa...
Any advice would be appreciated.
These types of problem are new to me; I imagine the ends of these two TWs are rounded? if so you might like to try just for the heck of it, a Generation or Feadog/ Waltons/generic Irish made TW; all of which, have a flatened spout off the end of the Fipple. The result is that holding this between your lips keeps the TW square - unless you screwup your gob to twist it to some other angle.
Cost of this kind of TW - 7 dollars on Amazon
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ChrisA
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As far as whistle playing goes, I don't think the little bit of rotation is bad for your playing
or bad for you. I do think, though, that if it's uncomfortable to hold a whistle straight,
there's probably something not quite right in your wrists, and you ought to check with
a doctor that you're not getting some kind of RSI. It could also just be overtightened muscles,
which a massage therapist can unknot, but they won't stay unknotted unless you find the
cause. Anyway, I doubt the whistle is the -cause- but I think it may be a -symptom- of
the problems caused by some other habit that's straining something.
--Chris
or bad for you. I do think, though, that if it's uncomfortable to hold a whistle straight,
there's probably something not quite right in your wrists, and you ought to check with
a doctor that you're not getting some kind of RSI. It could also just be overtightened muscles,
which a massage therapist can unknot, but they won't stay unknotted unless you find the
cause. Anyway, I doubt the whistle is the -cause- but I think it may be a -symptom- of
the problems caused by some other habit that's straining something.
--Chris
Sometimes if your hands are dry and not soft they will not make a good seal over the tone holes. Just use a hand lotion to corect that. I almost went nuts before I found out that one. I use a brand called ''Corn Huskers Lotion''.
''Whistles of Wood'', cpvc and brass. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=69086
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Kysh
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- Tell us something.: I've been playing irish music for about three decades. Flute player primarily, also perforce whistle player. Learning harp. Been a member of C&F for literally ever.
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If I may...
Take the whistle, put your fingers on it and play it.
Holy bejeezus, it seems like every other post on here and the flute forum is about how to hold the whistle. :>
Grey Larsen devotes twelve pages to it in his book. (And I don't even agree with him)
There must have been thousands of threads about this very issue.
Goodness gracious! Just play the thing. :> I mean, it's a whistle. As much as I love pennywhistles.. it's a whistle. It's a little rolled thing of wood or plastic and aluminum. Or even just wood. But it's a whistle. :> Breath control is far more important than how you hold the thing.. it's not so hard to unlearn bad habits of the fingers as it is to unlearn bad habits of the sort directly related to sound production.
As long as the thing sounds good, it doesn't matter how you're holding it. If you're giving yourselves spasms playing a whistle.. I can't imagine what you're doing to the poor thing. It's just a whistle. It rests lightly in your hands and plays lightly and mellifluously. It's a whistle.
Hold it however feels right, breathe lightly into the fipple, wiggle your fingers and enjoy.
-Kysh
Take the whistle, put your fingers on it and play it.
Holy bejeezus, it seems like every other post on here and the flute forum is about how to hold the whistle. :>
Grey Larsen devotes twelve pages to it in his book. (And I don't even agree with him)
There must have been thousands of threads about this very issue.
Goodness gracious! Just play the thing. :> I mean, it's a whistle. As much as I love pennywhistles.. it's a whistle. It's a little rolled thing of wood or plastic and aluminum. Or even just wood. But it's a whistle. :> Breath control is far more important than how you hold the thing.. it's not so hard to unlearn bad habits of the fingers as it is to unlearn bad habits of the sort directly related to sound production.
As long as the thing sounds good, it doesn't matter how you're holding it. If you're giving yourselves spasms playing a whistle.. I can't imagine what you're doing to the poor thing. It's just a whistle. It rests lightly in your hands and plays lightly and mellifluously. It's a whistle.
Hold it however feels right, breathe lightly into the fipple, wiggle your fingers and enjoy.
-Kysh
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Cynth
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I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to think about my difficulty and to make suggestions. That in itself has given me a real boost. I had more than a few laughs reading through them and laughing is very relaxing.
I think the general idea is that learning to recognize when I am getting all tensed up---giving myself spasms, kicking and thrashing, screwing up my gob---and then trying to relax and also working on breath control would be a better use of time than studying the pattern of the patina on my whistle. I will spend my time listening rather than looking. I may rotate the mouthpiece a bit so I am blowing down the center of the mouthpiece to see if the sound is better---if Lester Young could do it, well why can't I try it---but I won't worry about exactly where the holes are or what exact angle I'm holding it at if I can get a good tone.
ChrisA--Your response made me think about my wrist and forearm in general. This is not the first time I've had trouble with them. I may, as you say, be doing something else that is at the root of the problem and I need to figure out what that is before the problem gets serious.
I will try the Corn Huskers lotion---it is well known in Iowa!
I had not thought about the rounded vs. flat mouthpiece idea. That is very interesting and seems like it could be what is allowing me to rotate the whistle. I may try one of those just to see what they feel like. Of course, I may just be one of those people who screw up their gobs no matter what the situation.
BillChin---The essays by Eddie Lewis are really great. I read quite a number of them. I would encourage everyone to check them out. They are short, to the point and often humorous (sp). The keeping score one was great. It seemed sort of strange at first. But it is actually very encouraging. It is a way of looking at things that makes sense out of finally playing something right after a lot of practice and then screwing up the next time---one tends to feel one is going backward, but you aren't. I think it is good for me to keep in mind that I am playing the whistle for my self, not for an audience. I do not need to get all crazy. I just need to practice. Don't go into spasms, don't thrash and kick, don't screw up my gob.
Miwokhill I think your advice very sage. Trying too hard leads to tension. I am a very tense type. Then when it seems like I am getting worse I start kicking and thrashing and making the problem worse. So your idea about you are raising your standards as you go and forgetting where you started from was actually quite helpful. I think relaxing is the main thing. Although I must say that the idea of letting go and flowing with anything is so un-me that it is going to be hard!
And Mr. Kysh...., please do.
I think the general idea is that learning to recognize when I am getting all tensed up---giving myself spasms, kicking and thrashing, screwing up my gob---and then trying to relax and also working on breath control would be a better use of time than studying the pattern of the patina on my whistle. I will spend my time listening rather than looking. I may rotate the mouthpiece a bit so I am blowing down the center of the mouthpiece to see if the sound is better---if Lester Young could do it, well why can't I try it---but I won't worry about exactly where the holes are or what exact angle I'm holding it at if I can get a good tone.
ChrisA--Your response made me think about my wrist and forearm in general. This is not the first time I've had trouble with them. I may, as you say, be doing something else that is at the root of the problem and I need to figure out what that is before the problem gets serious.
I will try the Corn Huskers lotion---it is well known in Iowa!
I had not thought about the rounded vs. flat mouthpiece idea. That is very interesting and seems like it could be what is allowing me to rotate the whistle. I may try one of those just to see what they feel like. Of course, I may just be one of those people who screw up their gobs no matter what the situation.
BillChin---The essays by Eddie Lewis are really great. I read quite a number of them. I would encourage everyone to check them out. They are short, to the point and often humorous (sp). The keeping score one was great. It seemed sort of strange at first. But it is actually very encouraging. It is a way of looking at things that makes sense out of finally playing something right after a lot of practice and then screwing up the next time---one tends to feel one is going backward, but you aren't. I think it is good for me to keep in mind that I am playing the whistle for my self, not for an audience. I do not need to get all crazy. I just need to practice. Don't go into spasms, don't thrash and kick, don't screw up my gob.
Miwokhill I think your advice very sage. Trying too hard leads to tension. I am a very tense type. Then when it seems like I am getting worse I start kicking and thrashing and making the problem worse. So your idea about you are raising your standards as you go and forgetting where you started from was actually quite helpful. I think relaxing is the main thing. Although I must say that the idea of letting go and flowing with anything is so un-me that it is going to be hard!
And Mr. Kysh...., please do.
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Rocky Road
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Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and to playing, didn't want to start a new topic for nothing. I have some of the same problems. I'm not sure if my notes sound flat or what. I'm not really sure how they should sound at all. Also I don't know if I'm blowing too hard, when I do I get a really clear sound, but its too high, when I don't it seems too dead. 
I've tried playing some stuff like Star Of The County Down but doesn't seem sound right at all. Glad I found this forum. Looks great.
I've tried playing some stuff like Star Of The County Down but doesn't seem sound right at all. Glad I found this forum. Looks great.-
ChrisA
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If you blow soft and steady, you should get a clear sound in the lower octave, and
if you blow a bit harder, you should get a clear sound in the upper octave.
I'm not sure if by 'too high' you mean you're breaking into the next octave. If that's the
case, then you need to back off a little. Blowing just a little softer than breaks into the
next octave should produce a clear lower octave pitch.
If you just mean the pitch variation within the lower octave... blow for the clear sound.
Whistles, generally speaking, are not perfectly in tune (though if you spend enough or tweak
enough they can be).
Whether the 'D' is exactly a D is not really relevant for solo play (if by too high you mean
against a digital tuner or another instrument). All the other notes will move similarly higher,
so they'll stay the same relatively speaking. If you want to play with others, check out
the section on making a whistle tunable on the main site.
Breath control takes time to develop, so your notes may be a bit off or wavery at first,
and you may get the wrong octave sometimes, but it should clear up pretty quick.
It is possible that your whistle simply isn't very good though - Generations are prevalent
but noticeably variable in quality. I have generations that play clearly only in the lower
octave, and ones that play clearly only in the upper active, and ones that play well
everywhere.
And you should always feel free to start a new topic. Pixels are recyclable.
if you blow a bit harder, you should get a clear sound in the upper octave.
I'm not sure if by 'too high' you mean you're breaking into the next octave. If that's the
case, then you need to back off a little. Blowing just a little softer than breaks into the
next octave should produce a clear lower octave pitch.
If you just mean the pitch variation within the lower octave... blow for the clear sound.
Whistles, generally speaking, are not perfectly in tune (though if you spend enough or tweak
enough they can be).
Whether the 'D' is exactly a D is not really relevant for solo play (if by too high you mean
against a digital tuner or another instrument). All the other notes will move similarly higher,
so they'll stay the same relatively speaking. If you want to play with others, check out
the section on making a whistle tunable on the main site.
Breath control takes time to develop, so your notes may be a bit off or wavery at first,
and you may get the wrong octave sometimes, but it should clear up pretty quick.
It is possible that your whistle simply isn't very good though - Generations are prevalent
but noticeably variable in quality. I have generations that play clearly only in the lower
octave, and ones that play clearly only in the upper active, and ones that play well
everywhere.
And you should always feel free to start a new topic. Pixels are recyclable.
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lixnaw
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- Location: Isle of Geese
Brother steve is very good to start with http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
some people don't realy like the second octave on a high D,
but hoover whistles and Jerry Freeman tweaked sweetones are more mellow, and not that loud.
some people don't realy like the second octave on a high D,
but hoover whistles and Jerry Freeman tweaked sweetones are more mellow, and not that loud.
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Rocky Road
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- Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:44 am
Hi thanks for your reply, I seem to improving all the time. Do most people pick it up themselves or should I look for a few lessons to make sure Im picking it up right? I don't want to get sick of it because I'm not getting anywhere. Gonna get some books for tunes. Never thought there would be a forum with so many tin whistlers on it. Its great. My whistle is a Clarke Sweetone by the way.. Good? Bad? Anyone..
Thanks again.
Thanks again.