How well should I play a tune before moving on?

[headwizer]

I am using the Bill Ochs whistle tutorial for learning flute. He plays many of the tunes very fast, which is not easy for a newbie to attempt on whistle, but even more difficult to replicate on flute. I find myself gasping for air trying to keep up.

Anyway, I am itching to try ornamentation, but find myself playing over and over the tunes before the section on ornamentation to try and perfect those. Should I just give up trying to match the speed and wondrous phrasing of Bill's playing and just go to ornamentation already?

[Azalin]

I would say just the fact that you realize you could work more on phrasing is a big sign of good potential. I think you need to do whatever motivates you, as long as you don't intend to play with people who are much more advanced than you. If you're playing at home or some beginner session, then learn as many tunes as you want and play them just for the heck of it doing what's more fun for you, but if you plan on joining more advanced people who have great phrasing, then I'd say you need to sit down and work on your phrasing a little more. There are many exceptions, but my general philophy is that you should only join a session when you're no going to make the music worse

Darn, just realize I was on the flute forum, what am doing here?

[JS]

You know, I'm coming to flute from fiddle, and I'm approaching it a little differently. When I learned fiddle, I was anxious to acquire a bunch of tunes and to get up to speed, so I didn't give a lot of thought to ornamentation, thinking I could add it later. (And I hadn't settled into one style; I was interested in old-time as well as Irish, so I didn't have a single approach in mind.) With flute, I've been working on ornamentation from the beginning, in order to make it part of my muscle-memory of the tune--not having done this with fiddle has come to seem a limitation for me, something I need to go back and fix. It's slowing me down--if speed and number of tunes are the measure--but it is making it a more satisfying, if sometimes more frustrating experience. And the sound of the flute seems so dependent on having at least some ornaments in place.

That said, I'd be glad for suggestions of cds by fluters who are relatively restrained and effective in their use of ornaments. It's good to have models that seem not too far out of reach.

Jordan

[ChrisA]

If you can play a tune by memory - that is, without the sheet music or recording, whichever you're learning from - then you're ready to go on to the next tune. Speed and ornamentation come with time and practice, different amounts of it for different people. Some people are very 'natural' players in terms of getting the fingering right down, others aren't. But you'll go utterly mad if you try to play the same few tunes over and over until they're up to speed. As long as you run through all your tunes from time to time, the speed will come to all of them eventually.

[jim stone]

If you can play a tune by memory - that is, without the sheet music or recording, whichever you're learning from - then you're ready to go on to the next tune. Speed and ornamentation come with time and practice, different amounts of it for different people. Some people are very 'natural' players in terms of getting the fingering right down, others aren't. But you'll go utterly mad if you try to play the same few tunes over and over until they're up to speed. As long as you run through all your tunes from time to time, the speed will come to all of them eventually.

Second this.

Also it's good to do this so that you have some fun.
The speed and style of really good players is
attainable only over a long time--there's no way
one can acquire it playing a single tune.
As you play more tunes, you may come back
to something you were struggling with earlier
and find it's become easy.

[rama]

I am using the Bill Ochs whistle tutorial for learning flute. He plays many of the tunes very fast, which is not easy for a newbie to attempt on whistle, but even more difficult to replicate on flute. I find myself gasping for air trying to keep up.

Anyway, I am itching to try ornamentation, but find myself playing over and over the tunes before the section on ornamentation to try and perfect those. Should I just give up trying to match the speed and wondrous phrasing of Bill's playing and just go to ornamentation already?

i don't think it is realistic to expect a beginner to play fast. in fact, playing too fast (for themselves) is probably the biggest trap beginners fall into.
learn to play within your capabilities and limitations (for the most part).
of course we don't always know what they are at first.

[baggins_21]

Ever heard the saying "Slow and steady wins the prize?" I've been studying Larsen's book, and in the section on practice, he has a quote by someone who said that the way one learns how to play a tune quickly is by playing it slowly--that if you whiz through your tunes at mach 7, you sort of fly over notes/phrases you actually have trouble with; and if you have problem with a part, go back and play it over and over slowly until it's natural.
Also, I know for me that if my tone is inconsistent and spotty it doesn't matter how fast I play the tune, or how good my ornamentation is--it's going to sound bad.
I like the advice about playing within one's limitations--for me that means slowing down, concentrating on breathing deeply and regularly from my diaghram, thinking (or not) about my embouchure, and paying attention to the rhythm--sometimes it works. I suppose I'll eventually be able NOT to think about these things and just do them more naturally, but that's where I am right now.
The playing slowly/evenly works for me.

[peeplj]

Don't move on.

Add to.

-James

[chas]

The most important thing is, you will have to put in the time, so whatever gets you playing and practicing more is what you should do. For me it was finding a flute I really wanted to play, and I've learned tunes both learning the melody first and adding ornaments later, and learning the tune as a whole from the beginning.

I also agree with the folks who have said, however you learn the tunes, learn them well. Slow and good is much better than fast and sloppy, both from a listener's point of view and from a learning point of view.

[djm]

There is all manner of slow-downer software to enable you to find a comfortable speed to learn the tunes at. You can use this for learning more than just the tunes that came with the tutor. Try slowing down a master like Micho Russell to learn perfect rhythm, or Matt Molloy for technique. Even if you can't play to speed, you are still learning something valuable and getting the tunes that you like into your repertoire.

djm

[Tom O'Farrell]

The practice of scales and arpeggios does not get mentioned much here. Why I don't know. I am not at all sure that learning flute is best done by learning tunes at the same time. Practicing scales makes the world of difference to me even after all these years, and tunes are made up of scales and arpeggios.
I suggest taking a scale a day will give marked improvement in just a month of steady careful practice.

[jim stone]

Do you know a nice list of arpeggios?

Let me add to all of the above that it
is important to relax, relax, while practicing
playing the flute.

[burrenbabe]

[quote="Azalin"]as long as you don't intend to play with people who are much more advanced than you.......my general philophy is that you should only join a session when you're no going to make the music worse

I think that this sort of response to the question, is most certainly going to put off any potential "newbie" from joining sessions. How is one ever supposed to improve if they don't play with musicians more experienced than themselves? There is ALWAYS going to be SOMEONE who is better at playing/phrasing/ornamentation than you, or me or Matt Malloy for that matter! In joining in with sessions a "newbie" will gain confidence and get invaluable information and practice that is just not possible while sitting at the kitchen table playing by yourself! As far as making the music "worse" is concerned, well that is ALWAYS a matter of opinion - some of the best players go to a session drink too much and end up sounding like a scrawny cat (just 4uMoxy! )& a banshee having a fight!

My thoughts on playing fast/slow are that getting the basic tune is most important and the only way to do that is to start at a snails pace and gradually increase speed until it's satisfactory. Then by ATTENDING SESSIONS with MORE EXPERIENCED players, you can pick up the speed they do and listen/record ornamentations that are used by "Joe Bloggs flute player" next to you. When you go home to the kitchen table, practice what you heard, go back to the next session and try again! Listening to yourself playing is the best form of critique for yourself. You can hear the tune better from a recording, you will be able to pick out where you would like the ornamentation to go and then gradually add it in.

Any good musician worth his/her salt will be only too glad to slow a session down a little or take a few minutes with a "newbie" to help out.

Oh, by the way - practice practice practice!!

[Ro3b]

Do you know a nice list of arpeggios?

For purposes of Irish music, it's good to be familiar with these:

D: D F# A d f# a d'
Em: E G B e g b
G: D G B d g b d'
A: E A c# e a c#'
Am: E A c e a c'
Bm: D F# B d f# b d'
C: E G c e g c'
D7: D F# A c d f# a c'
A7: E G A c# e g a c#'

If you can identify all the arpeggios in all the tunes you play as you're playing them, you're pretty much master of the universe. You can play variations, whip out harmony lines, recover gracefully from mistakes, tell clueless accompanists the right chords to play, come up with interesting cool ways of putting tunes together, and generally play with a much greater degree of understanding.

[fyffer]

I think that this sort of response to the question, is most certainly going to put off any potential "newbie" from joining sessions. How is one ever supposed to improve if they don't play with musicians more experienced than themselves? There is ALWAYS going to be SOMEONE who is better at playing/phrasing/ornamentation than you, or me or Matt Malloy for that matter! In joining in with sessions a "newbie" will gain confidence and get invaluable information and practice that is just not possible while sitting at the kitchen table playing by yourself! As far as making the music "worse" is concerned, well that is ALWAYS a matter of opinion - some of the best players go to a session drink too much and end up sounding like a scrawny cat (just 4uMoxy! )& a banshee having a fight!

My thoughts on playing fast/slow are that getting the basic tune is most important and the only way to do that is to start at a snails pace and gradually increase speed until it's satisfactory. Then by ATTENDING SESSIONS with MORE EXPERIENCED players, you can pick up the speed they do and listen/record ornamentations that are used by "Joe Bloggs flute player" next to you. When you go home to the kitchen table, practice what you heard, go back to the next session and try again! Listening to yourself playing is the best form of critique for yourself. You can hear the tune better from a recording, you will be able to pick out where you would like the ornamentation to go and then gradually add it in.

Any good musician worth his/her salt will be only too glad to slow a session down a little or take a few minutes with a "newbie" to help out.

Oh, by the way - practice practice practice!!

AMEN to all that! As a session newbie myself, I just *went* to a session that was advertised as an "Intermediate" session, and hoped for the best. Either the people are nice, helpful and accepting of who you are and where you are right now, or they are not, and you should go somewhere else. I got lucky in that I found good people at the session I go to. They are *very* tolerant and helpful.

So, BurrenBabe - do you actually live in the Burren area? I'm going to be in Ireland over St. Patrick's Day for a week, and staying in Doolin for 3 of the 6 nights I'll be there. Where's the craic? It would be nice to meet/play with another C&F'er who knows where to go.