More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales

IRTradRU? · Post by **IRTradRU?** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:15 pm

AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.

But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.

In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country."

Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?

more at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/inter ... 50&ei=5070

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:27 pm

I guess every board has it's resident nazi troll.

dubhlinn · Post by **dubhlinn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:35 pm

Like many of IRTradRU?s previous posts,this stinks.

I work with a huge amount of Muslim guys and find them all very kind and helpful people.Granted ,they have a problem with a small minority of extremists but what race doesn't. There will always be crazies out there even in the American Right.

I'm sure there are forums out there where this kind of crap is appreciated,this ain't one of them.

Slan,
D.

IRTradRU? · Post by **IRTradRU?** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:37 pm

Perhaps a letter to the NY Times would help.

dubhlinn · Post by **dubhlinn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:50 pm

I have no idea what readers of the NY Times find acceptable but I do know that around here these views are neither acceptable nor welcome.

This board is a meeting place for a vast mix of people who have hugely different backgrounds and perspectives and I cannot think of one member who would share the views put forward in that article.

Off you go and learn a few nice jigs..good boy.

Slan,
D.

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:15 pm

The Netherlands sometimes scare me. I am aware that the Netherlands is probably the most socially and economically liberal country on earth, but despite that fact (or because of it??) they kill living breathing (but very sick babies) there:

The AP wrote:
Terminally Ill Babies Euthanized
Experts Say Mercy Killings Elsewhere Go Unreported Out of Fear

By TOBY STERLING, AP

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (Nov. 30) - Raising the stakes in an excruciating ethical debate, a hospital in the Netherlands - the first nation to permit euthanasia - recently proposed guidelines for mercy killings of terminally ill newborns, and then made a startling revelation: It has already begun carrying out such procedures in a handful of cases and reporting them to the government.

The announcement last month by the Groningen Academic Hospital came amid a growing discussion in Holland on whether to legalize euthanasia on people incapable of deciding for themselves whether they want to end their lives - a prospect viewed with horror by euthanasia opponents and as a natural evolution by advocates.

In August, the main Dutch doctors' association KNMG urged the Health Ministry to create an independent board to review euthanasia cases for terminally ill people "with no free will," including children, the severely mentally retarded, and people left in an irreversible coma after an accident.

The Health Ministry is preparing its response to the request, a spokesman said, and it may come as soon as December.

Three years ago, the Dutch parliament made it legal for doctors to inject a sedative and a lethal dose of muscle relaxant at the request of adult patients suffering great pain with no hope of relief.

The Groningen Protocol, as the hospital's guidelines have come to be known, would create a legal framework for permitting doctors to actively end the life of newborns deemed to be in similar pain from incurable disease or extreme deformities.

The guideline says euthanasia is acceptable when the child's medical team and independent doctors agree the pain cannot be eased and there is no prospect for improvement, and when parents think it's best.

Examples include extremely premature births, where children suffer brain damage from bleeding and convulsions; and diseases where a child could only survive on life support for the rest of its life such as spina bifida and epidermosis bullosa, a blistering illness.

The hospital said it carried out four such mercy killings in 2003, and reported all cases to government prosecutors - but there have been no legal proceedings taken against them.

Catholic organizations and the Vatican have reacted with outrage to Groningen's announcement, and U.S. euthanasia opponents contend that the proposal shows the Dutch have lost their moral compass.

"The slippery slope in the Netherlands has descended already into a vertical cliff," said Wesley J. Smith, a prominent California-based critic, in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Child euthanasia remains illegal everywhere. Experts say doctors outside of Holland do not report cases for fear of prosecution.

"As things are, people are doing this secretly and that's wrong," said Eduard Verhagen, head of Groningen's children's' clinic. "In the Netherlands we want to expose everything, to let everything be subjected to vetting."

According to the Justice Ministry, four cases of child euthanasia were reported to prosecutors in 2003. Two were reported in 2002, seven in 2001 and five in 2000. All the cases in 2003 were reported by Groningen, but some of the cases in other years were from other hospitals.

Groningen estimated the protocol would be applicable in about 10 cases per year in the Netherlands, a country with 16 million people.

Since the introduction of the Dutch law, Belgium has also legalized euthanasia, while in France, legislation to allow doctor-assisted suicide is currently under debate. In the United States, the state of Oregon is alone in allowing physician-assisted suicide, but this is under constant legal challenge.

However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States but that such practice is hidden.

"Measures that might marginally extend a child's life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day," said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in the United States. "Everybody knows that it happens, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they're not going to do."

More than half of all deaths occur under medical supervision, so it's really about management and method of death, Stell said.

11/30/04 14:02 EST

BTW, Muslims are not a race, dubhlinn. There are black central African Muslims, Blue-eyed Swedish Muslims, and every color in between.

dubhlinn · Post by **dubhlinn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:27 pm

Cranberry wrote:BTW, Muslims are not a race, dubhlinn. There are black central African Muslims, Blue-eyed Swedish Muslims, and every color in between.

You are correct Cran and I apologise for that little mistake. The blood was boiling a bit there and I slipped up on that one, though I'm sure you get my meaning none the less

Slan,
D.

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:28 pm

I think you are overreacting to the post. He was just relaying an article, not being a "Nazi troll." It's telling by the comments how uncomfortable some are with this impending reality. And it's in the NY Times for crynoutloud, not the Neo-Aryan Tribune! The NY Times is the most prominent liberal daily in the country. This is the same paper than, on the American Veteran's Day holiday, chose to show a suffering Iraqi displaced by the military activities there, rather than the usual experience-hardened vet in his VFW beret!

Given the context of the EU's economic rise, the article is somewhat of the cloud within the silver lining. I pointed out in another thread, that the rise of economic prominence of the EU and the Euro, combined with the secular humanist philosophy may make Europe a greater target for the jihadists as time goes on. This would most definitely affect life there.

Sure there are "nice" Muslims. But it so happens that the Wahabi style of Islam, mostly emanating from Saudi Arabia, must be confronted unless you want to convert or die from it. I believe it represents from 35-60 million Muslims, according to a recent interview I heard with an author who had written on the subject. This same author emphasized that the van Gogh killing was done by a Dutch-born Muslim, not a foreign terrorist and that each society with a sizable Islamic population will have varying experiences in getting along.

And calling names and shooting the messenger changes nothing.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:46 pm

He was just relaying an article, not being a "Nazi troll."

That's one of the ways trolling is done. "Troll" is exactly the correct term for a post like this.

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/Deskt ... &itemid=20

Defintion #1

An annoyance usually on Messageboards who posts for the purpose of causing a disturbance. Often by making comments of a slanderous nature, accusatory, or just general pain-in-the-assness.

Defintion #2

An outrageous message posted to a newsgroup or mailing list or message board to bait people to answer. Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it. Also, the person who posts such messages.

Definition #3

A term used to define a public message (either on a USENET newsgroup or other public message board on an online service) that is posted for the sole purpose of offending people and/or generating an enormous flood of non-topic replies.

Definition #4

A troublemaker who deliberately posts provocative, hostile or annoying messages in a newsgroup or mailing list with the specific intent of starting a flamewar. The practice is known as trolling.Related terms: Flame, Flamewar, Post, POST, Mailing list, Newsgroup

Definition #5

A troublemaker who deliberately posts provocative, hostile or annoying messages in a newsgroup or mailing list with the specific intent of starting a flamewar. The practice is known as trolling.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:47 pm

Sure there are "nice" Muslims. But it so happens that the Wahabi style of Islam, mostly emanating from Saudi Arabia, must be confronted unless you want to convert or die from it.

This is utter, hate-filled nonsense.

NicoMoreno · Post by **NicoMoreno** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:07 pm

I guess every board has it's resident nazi troll.

This is utter, hate-filled nonsense.

I agree.

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:25 pm

dubhlinn wrote:There will always be crazies out there even in the American Right.

Don't leave out the crazies in the American Left. That is discrimination.......

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm

Throwing around words like 'nazi' and 'hate' and 'nonsense' is not a counterargument, it's a battery of insults, and serves only to lower the tone of the thread and the message board in general, and is, generally speaking, -precisely- the reaction desired by trolls.

Whether he is a troll or not, had anti-islamist motives for the original posting of the link or not, the article itself is not absurd in any way. It describes -events- and peoples -reactions-. It does not endorse those reactions, and it points out that the one murder is virtually the only violence connected to islam in any way in the country. Unless there's evidence that the murder -didn't- take place as described, people are -not- talking about leaving the country, or that the article is in some other way inaccurate or leaving out vital, relevant information, then the article isn't to blame for reporting the truth. If you must place blame, you could blame the dutch people for being intolerant of muslim immigrants, but there's a strong flavour of irony in doing such a thing.

Brigitte · Post by **Brigitte** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:06 pm

I guess the emmigration specialist had the some hysteric peope contacting him after the murder of Mr. van Gogh. Sounds VERY similar than the report from the Canadian Immigration website after the re-election of Mr. Bush in November when they had millions of hits and the server broke down. When reading the article the raise in numbers of emmigration sounds tremendous, they do not anymore when you have a more informed picture of the emmigration situation in the Netherlands and then any objectivity or connection of the murder and the growing numbers mentioned in the article blows up in a puff. The Netherlands is the most liberal and tolerant country I know of, still everywhere you find some hysterical people and they usually have a tendency to shout louder than the rest.

Fact is that the Netherlands are one of the most populated countries in Europe, about 400 people live in one square kilometer today. From what I know the dutch government has always had a quite active support policy for emmigrants. The Netherlands always had a growing tendency of emmigration but still due to immigration and birth over death numbers they are growing massively. Basically they cannot get rid of enough people to stop overpopulation. So the growing numbers of emmigration have various reasons and not only the one mentioned in the article. On 01.01.02 it was 16,1 million citizens btw.

1951-1960 10,2 mil 462000 immigrants 629000 emigrants
1961-1970 11,55 mil 689000 immigrants 557000 emigrants
1971-1980 13.12 mil 954000 immigrants 607000 emigrants
1981-1990 14.2 mil 855000 immigrants 586000 emigrants
1991-2000 15,01 mil 1145000 immigrants 792000 emigrants
2001-2010 15864 mil ?? ??

Brigitte

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:06 pm

I can remember in the time immediately following the OKC bombings many people assumed that it was done by Mohammedans and were shouting that they shouldn't be allowed to come into the country. However, I stated that I was opposed to any religious test for immigration. As it turned out, the radicals convicted of that act of terror weren't even of the religion that people were wanting to bar because of it.