LOLLY ANNOUNCES HER 3RD CD

[lollycross]

Hi all,
Well, I am FINALLY getting the right words that you say will help
me make my cds better. I don't understand why the first few
posters could't just say right out what they didn't like, instead of PMing
me and saying "it was awful", and not explaining anything.

So, we have
1. not playing with enough feeling
2. instruments not in tune with each other
3. don't play 3 times thru the same way even tho other instruments
are going and coming
4. have the rhythm perfectly together

These are all REAL things that can be worked on/changed/thought about.

The STYLE thing still gets to me tho.
As they say on American Idol ...take a tune and make it your own.
I really believe in that, so I won't put myself in any catagory again.
When I said American, I meant non-Itrad. When I said Traditional
I mean, old tunes out of copy-right that are in the public domain.
And that is all I meant.

Some have also mentioned running my finished tunes past people, which I do, and they said they were fine, meaning I had progressed
oodles from when I started learning to do this.

Some have talked about different speaker-testing. Yes, my machine
does has "speaker modeling". I turn a dial and I can hear how it sounds on the best to the worst. That IS somewhat helpful, but without a
bass line, it will always sound more "tinny" than a rock band, so
I put in a low drum, which others didn't like. So that is a hard problem
to work on too.

The electronic "fixing" of notes/tones tho is something I really
hate to go into. Then you have a "electronic" tune, and not a
live "blowing, plucking, strumming, or bowing-type" one.
I'm sure there are good and bad "fixer" programs too,
but that just sounds like the WRONG way to do it, doesn't it?
I would think that trying to play every note more perfect would
work better if one was trying to accomplish a "perfect" tune.

So thanks for the more construction comments.
Even if no one on this forum ever bought this CD (but some already have), I would still consider it a success........
true it will never make the "charts", but, hey, its just little-old-me,
doing something cool in my retirement.
I learned how to do all this stuff, and I succeeded in doing it 3 times.
It will be listed on CDBaby for years and now I-Pod sales have started
coming in, from all over the world, where people are downloading
single tunes. So that alone makes for personal success.
There are very few hobbies out there where you can actually see dollars coming back at you. Knitting a beautiful afgan is great, and you
see if every day on your sofa, but when people are liking your
personal music enough to send checks in the mail, that is very
fulfilling.
Lolly

[Wombat]

Using expensive monitors is a good way to start but you might consider using a variety of speakers including cheap ones.

I once got a chance to go to a bigshot Nashville producer's house with my demo tape. I figured since he was a rich music industry dude with a big house he'd play my tape on a state of the art sound system... wrong. He played it on this little tape player with the crappiest speakers i'd ever heard.

BTW he hated the song but complimented my fiddle playing. I never heard back from him.

Well that's a bit surprising. But they often use very crappy speakers during the final mix down becasue they figure that that is what most people will have. No good making a record that sounds great on audiophile equipment if it sounds terrible on your average home system.

In teh 60s, many producers wanted singles that sounded great on a car radio. They figured that was where most people who bought singles made their decisions.

[BoneQuint]

It seems to me that people are dancing around the point here a bit. I'll take a stab at what I think the essence of the question is as I see it.

Playing good music (or music worth recording and selling) isn't about following the right formula. It's about recognizing and learning about what makes music work. It's a mysterious, subtle, subconscious thing. If you add a variation on purpose to make sure it's not boring, you're probably on the wrong path. You can't "force" things like that. You have to feel where things fit through experience and your own personal taste. You'll "hear" in your head variations -- melodic changes, dynamics, articulations, rhythmic slipping and sliding, changes in tone -- and it feels right and organic and natural to the tune. And if you have enough skill to execute it, the people you're playing with will hear it, and respond to it. That's the way the music lives and breathes, and what makes it different from classical music. By listening to lots of good players (and not so good ones), you'll learn the subtleties of the language internally, so it becomes a natural thing. That's the way you make the tune "your own." If you can only play a tune one or two ways, you haven't breathed your own vision into it. If you "hear" how you would REALLY want the tune to twist, turn, grow, and live, and work at executing that vision until it resembles the vision in your head, then you've made it your own.

[Cayden]

In addition to the previous post by Bonequint I would like to add that Irish music breaths and lives by what the musican puts in much like any music, in the case of Irish music it's the placement of ornaments, variation, both rhythmic and melodic, and all these little things that make it such a joy to listen to when played well.
By insisting on playing Irish tunes but pretending not to play Irish music by cutting out everything that gives it life you limit yourself immensely, you end up playing cardboard, lifeless music. If you add into the mix accompanists who are obviously not at home with the repertoire and fail to add something personal to make up for what you left out, you end up with Lolly style music. That may sound like a harsh statement but by the end of the day that's how it is. There are ways out of this though , either you get more at home with the music you play or you start playing music you are more at home with. It could be refreshing to make that fourth CD using different material, maybe genuine 'American' material but arranged to incorporate whistles. Just an idea.

And for those who will say that music is a learning process in which it's the journey that matters, yes I agree up to a point but I do think that the early stages of the travelogue are best inscribed in the privacy of one's own diary to be viewed behind closed doors or shared with friends, not offered for sale to those 'who don't know any better'.

[Azalin]

I'll tell you, though, I think Lolly's music would be more suited to young kids than your typical irish music CD. I think it's so simple, without much depth, that it would be a little more enjoyable for children. I'm not talking about irish kids who grew up around the music. I'm sure kids love that stuff. I'm not being ironic.

[Cayden]

You obviously haven't any yourself Don't underestimate children Az, they are not all simplicity and no taste and all that. I know what my young fella said when I was listening to the clip of the Sally Gardens ha ha.

[Flyingcursor]

Bonequint was on the mark with what I said earlier. Why would I want to listen to someone over and over? It's not a formula but something intangable. You know it when you hear it. And what Peter said about trad applies to any form of music.

[dubhlinn]

You obviously haven't any yourself Don't underestimate children Az, they are not all simplicity and no taste and all that. I know what my young fella said when I was listening to the clip of the Sally Gardens ha ha.

You want to hear what my fella sez about my playing..

Slan,
D.

[Sandy Jasper]

Lolly

I agree with you, make a song your own. For me, there is a real beauty in the transfer of your soul or your feelings through the medium of music.

I would be happy to comment on how you can get even more from the recording experience. First off, I think you put some solid thought into the recording process and this is good. The challenge is now in the execution.

Tuning. This is a given, one of the "free" things you can do when recording as it gives the recording a much more polished sound without having to put out extra money, time or go on a learning curve.

Timing: I think here, the challenge is to decide is what track determines the timing. Is it a drummer? Guitar player? Bodrhan player? Or do you use a metronome? Once you decide who is "boss" then you can let all other players know who to follow exclusively. For example. If the guitar player is following the whistle but the whiste is following the drum and the fiddle player favours the mandolin track, it can all get a bit out of sync. But if they all follow the guitar or drum, then it is tighter. If you are doing layered recording, it can often be a good idea to record the lead melody instrument at the same time as the person setting the rhythm. That way they play off of each other and you have a good foundation.

Bass: You mentioned that you didn't have a bass player but missed the bass. Maybe try one! It might fill out the sound and allow you to mix the other instruments without trying to fill that in.

Live Feel: The CD has a live feel for me so I am not going to dwell too much on tightness etc. It sounds like you are having a kitchen party and a good time. This is good.

Effects, Mixing & Mastering: This is where I feel your CD can gain the most. You are on a learning curve and this is good. You are trying for all the right things but it sounds to me like the effects are muddying up the CD and causing an unpleasant drone in the background. If you could find a professional studio that understood Celic music and could work well with you, Having the CD re-mixed could help you to bring out all the things you worked so hard to put into it. For example, the counter parts etc. I didn't notice them because I was thrown off by that delay like drone in the background.

In the studio I go to, the engineer is very open to my suggestions but I am also open to his. He knows his equiptment and with his help, I can get the best out of my music. If something is a bit out, you can pull that instrument down in the mix just at that spot and it won't stand out so much. Often a good mix will help you to bring out the best in a recording. If you do this, make sure you find someone who is willing to make you part of the process. That way you can learn from him and he from you. The CD will end up sounding the way you want it to.

Also, just because you recorded it doesn't mean you have to keep it! I will often record more than I keep in the final mix. Sometimes my piano and my husbands guitar are doing about the same thing and they muddy up the mix. By being willing to take out what I don't need and keeping it simple, I can gain more than by adding more people. The same applys to reverb and delay. You have to use it sparingly or else the space you worked so hard to create when you first envisioned the CD is lost to a bunch of echo. Don't get me wrong, I love reverb, I just don't use a lot of it on background instruments, especially rhythm.

I hope that helps some!

Keep enjoying your music and all the best,

Sandy

[moxy]

If you "hear" how you would REALLY want the tune to twist, turn, grow, and live, and work at executing that vision until it resembles the vision in your head, then you've made it your own.

Uh huh That's exactly right. And it's what I'm striving to achieve, and sadly, I'm not there yet (I'm very sad and frustrated about that, and this too shall pass, thankfully).

Seriously, these are the words that are resonating in my head as I walk home tonight from listening to some friends play in a local pub, because this is exactly what they're doing.

Thanks for wording it in this way, my goal is much clearer now!!

[Azalin]

Uh huh That's exactly right. And it's what I'm striving to achieve, and sadly, I'm not there yet (I'm very sad and frustrated about that, and this too shall pass, thankfully).

Hehe, I wouldnt worry if I were you, I'm sure you're the whistle player who've made the most progress in about a year and a half in history.

Seriously, these are the words that are resonating in my head as I walk home tonight from listening to some friends play in a local pub, because this is exactly what they're doing.

By the way it got much better later on, in terms of chemistry. Johanne's amazing playing drove the whole thing up. They tuned down a little to give my whistles a chance, and we had some mighty sets, whistle first and then fiddle jumping in. As I told them, you don't want a whistle to jump in after a fiddle, especially if Johanne is playing

[Wombat]

It seems to me that people are dancing around the point here a bit. I'll take a stab at what I think the essence of the question is as I see it.

Playing good music (or music worth recording and selling) isn't about following the right formula. It's about recognizing and learning about what makes music work. It's a mysterious, subtle, subconscious thing.

I don't think anybody has been dancing around the point. Whilst I appreciate and agree with the points you and Peter are making, I think this is no longer the place to make them, and hasn't been for several pages. What we have here is a clash of attitudes and cultures and nobody on either side is going to convince anyone on the other. So, as someone accused of bullying recently—decide for yourselves—let me suggest that it would be better to make these points about what makes Irish and other folk musics really work some other place and just address Lolly's CD in her own terms. Well, that's what I propose to do now that I know what those terms are.

I do understand why people are angry and I do think that those who don't understand are missing something. Some people devote their life and sweat blood to get to the point of being able to play the ITM repertoire in a traditional way and with transcendent beauty. When they hear their repertoire being appropriated for 'white bread' presentation, and then presented with performance glitches, of course there will be irritation spilling over into anger.

OTOH, there is a tradition, call it 'American' if you like, for doing precisely this, not just to music but to food, literature, dance and just about everything else. I've seen and laughed at goulash recipes for the middle classes which specify about 10% or the paprika and cayenne I would use. But if that's your world, not only are you going to enjoy the 'goulash for tourists', you'd absolutely hate the real thing. I'm pretty certain that Lolly simply doesn't want to play Irish tunes with the edgy rhythms and nyah that most of us prefer and strive for. So, having made the point (and the protest) that that does involve an element of disrespect for the tradition, let's move on.

Lolly, I have now heard some of your clips and, yes, I do hear the problems others hear in them. I still think that the practical advice I offered earlier applies. I also think that Sandy has covered very well a number of issues I'd now want to address. Let me just elaborate on points she didn't mention.

There is a muddiness in the baritone range that could be due to panning, could be reverb or could be due to too many instruments competing down there. A good rule for reverb is that it is very suspect for rhythm instruments unless you are going for a very special effect. My rule is this. I use reverb only to restore analogue warmth to the digital recording process and never to cover for poor phrasing or weak tone. When you record you try to eradicate natural echo from the environment. I like to add just enough reverb to simulate the echo you would get in a room with good accoustics. The listener won't even hear it as echo but just as 'presence'.

I'm not sure about the bass. That might add to the muddiness. You might consider dispensing with drum and bass altogether and using a click track to govern rhythm. I found the very basic drum beat distracting and I think it dragged the rhythm down rather than giving the melody instruments something to propel them to more exciting performances. One way of implementing Sandy's suggestion of using a melody instrument which I would use when multitracking which gives you the best of both worlds is to have the melody instrument play against a click track. Then let the rhythm instruments record their parts with melody and click track in mind. Next rerecord the main melody instrument with clicktrack and rhythm—it now has a solid foundation moulded precisely for the phrasing you had in mind. Finally, add other melody instruments.

I think there's some tension between wanting prettiness and wanting a folksy live feel. Since your repertoire is drawn from ITM, as soon as you start getting folksy people are going to start evaluating your music using ITM criteria of excellence. This thread is what you get when that happens. Perhaps a bit more easy listening sheen would work better; it won't put off your customers and it will be less likely to mislead others.

Finally, let me try to clarify why issues of definition do matter. Put most simply, imagine you were running a record store and your CD arrived. Where would you file it? Would you file it under 'celtic' thus inviting the charge that it isn't really ITM, or would you file it under 'new age' or 'easy listening?' These categories don't nail you down; they are just marketing tools to avoid misleading the buyer and to maximise sales and good will.

But the issue of classification for filing purposes is really nowhere near the main reason that it's important to think about these things. The main reason is this. You have to have a very clear idea of what you want if you are going to issue effective directions to musicians and engineers and have everyone pulling in the right direction. I think you had a fairly clear idea, but execution would have benefitted from giving this more thought and communicating more before and during recording.

I hope these ideas are both helpful and constructive.

[lollycross]

Yes, Sandy, and yes, Wombat,
these are much more constructive things to tell me.
Thank you.
I will work on them for my next cd.
Lolly

[irish69]

As they say on American Idol ...take a tune and make it your own.
I really believe in that, so I won't put myself in any catagory again.

I don't see how you accomplished this, Lolly. The tunes sound too trite and cliche to me. I think a lot of the problem lies in using a drum machine instead of a live drummer.

[anniemcu]

From http://www.rambles.net/celtic_trad.html (DO NOT CLICK ON THE WEB RING LINKS THERE!!)

What is "Celtic music"? Obviously, the term doesn't describe the music of the ancient Celts, which hasn't survived in any recognizable form to modern times. While some people use the term as a marketing tool, we prefer to employ "Celtic music" to describe the family of traditions that continues to thrive today, be it straight from Ireland or Scotland, or from any of the myriad places in the world touched by a Celtic influence.

(emphasis mine)

If people are enjoying your music, Lolly, good for you. This CD is better than your earlier ones. I cannot add much to the good advice already given, and I don't care to add to the ugly side of it at all. Take what helps you, set aside the rest, and continue to grow in your musicianship. Just as there are many stages of expertise in musicianship, so are there many levels of appreciation. You will give them more next time.