Ignorance of the flute playing tradition?

[rh]

not to belabor the issue, Jack, but have you heard Nugent's first cd? Go to http://www.shanachie.com/album.cfm?id=78001 and click on
3. The Fair of Ballydarreen/ Brendan McGlinchey's (Reels)
for a short sample... this is what i think of when i think of Larry Nugent...

i remember when the first cd came out it sounded really fresh and generated a lot of excitement precisely because Nugent DIDN'T play like Molloy et al rather he had more of what some people call that "puffing" style reminiscent of McKenna. So to see you lump him in with McGoldrick and others (who i really enjoy, btw, just like i enjoy Nugent) was surprising to me.

Also, even though some of his later material is more introspective and less edgy, he has from what i've heard had some sorrows in his life, as have others (didn't Molloy almost die from some malady?)... just because you don't recognize it in their music doesn't mean it isn't there.

okay, enough from me.

[Eldarion]

So this man, who is on your list of 'uninspiring modern players', is from a line that far pre-dates the fine gents you refer to as 'old school' and who themselves were likely wild departures from what their sires and grandsires considered good and proper technique and style.

Unfortunately or fortunately for Molloy, just because dad and grandad were old school doesn't automatically confer upon the son the title of old school. Also considering the context of early 20th century rural Ireland, I'm also not very convinced of the probablilty that Molloy's dad or grandad would have been wild deviations from what was deemed to be flutey in the area. Perhaps you have evidence to substantiate your statement?

I had a question that I wished Cara had asked in her recent interview with MM. It concerns how did he develop his style and why was it such a stylistic departure from what you would hear coming from his old teachers and mentors in the area eg. Peter Horan, Josie McDermott.

Just to play the devils advocate a bit, how does playing the Irish flute obligate me in anyway to continue in whatever sort of tradition it had? Especially so when most of us forum members are non-Irish? Heck the Irish themselves don't seem concerned about it. Moreover most of us have been listening to the slick, studio produced, sanitary, equal tempered music all our lives. The idea of continuing such an alien flute tradition would be a bit irregular.

On that level, it would be preference. Then there is ignorance, of which I think there are 2 levels.

1) don't know the old recordings exist and where to get them therefore have not heard them

2) unaware that there are Irish flute instrument traditions that are going away

[MurphyStout]

Kevin, I used the wrong word. I mean I've heard almost of all those players and I have individual albums for many of them. I have well over a hundred cds, most of them flute to listen to so I'm not just talking out my ass. I think it's great that you have stirred so much interest in the irish flute through your work but I don't think the first one should be regarded so highly as the gospel of traditional irish flute playing because it's not.


I guess I just used the wrong wording and I came off as being accusational. Quite possible I pissed more people off than the number of people I actually got interested in listening to geezers.

We can nit pick all we want and maybe it was harsh to catagorize people into two groups but in the interest of brevity I did. The bottom line is that the many of the players nowadays are too polished, and have lost the feel of the music. And the albums are too commercial, have horrible accompaniment, dishonest, played too fast and just don't have hte depth of the older stuff. My opinion of course.

Whatever the case, I wanted to throw this thread out there because I believe many of you don't have a clue as to what the tradition was and what it has become. Regardless of your feelings on my tone of voice or whether or not I'm an ass, get yourself informed about the rich past of this instrument and then take it from there. Blowing a grand on cds to listen to is alot better of a purchase than getting your sixth six keyed flute that you may or may not be capable of playing.

[MurphyStout]

rh, yes, I own all of Nugents cds and I think he is a fine player but my opinion still stands. He doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Kevin Henry, in my opinion.

[AaronMalcomb]

Dude, Jack, you need to detox from the Pepsi, put down the flute, and blast some AC/DC... change your perspective a bit.

Cheers,
Aaron

[kkrell]

Kevin, I used the wrong word. I mean I've heard almost of all those players and I have individual albums for many of them. I have well over a hundred cds, most of them flute to listen to so I'm not just talking out my ass. I think it's great that you have stirred so much interest in the irish flute through your work but I don't think the first one should be regarded so highly as the gospel of traditional irish flute playing because it's not.


I guess I just used the wrong wording and I came off as being accusational. Quite possible I pissed more people off than the number of people I actually got interested in listening to geezers.

We can nit pick all we want and maybe it was harsh to catagorize people into two groups but in the interest of brevity I did. The bottom line is that the many of the players nowadays are too polished, and have lost the feel of the music. And the albums are too commercial, have horrible accompaniment, dishonest, played too fast and just don't have hte depth of the older stuff. My opinion of course.

Whatever the case, I wanted to throw this thread out there because I believe many of you don't have a clue as to what the tradition was and what it has become. Regardless of your feelings on my tone of voice or whether or not I'm an ass, get yourself informed about the rich past of this instrument and then take it from there. Blowing a grand on cds to listen to is alot better of a purchase than getting your sixth six keyed flute that you may or may not be capable of playing.

OK, I'm now in agreement. WFO really isn't all that important (seriously). I wasn't actually being defensive about it, but hoping for some clarification for the "ignorant". While I do indeed also enjoy the newer, let's say, well-produced players, I'm most blown away by the likes of Peter Horan. There's just so much there in his playing, whether from musical genius (and a mastery of the instrument) or a wonderful mistake. The WFO track was done in 1 take, his only take that day. BTW, there was a really nice Canadian broadcast of the Peter Horan Tribute Concert (Goderich 2001).

Kevin Krell

[moxy]

OK, I still can't figure it out after all these posts... sorry, I'm the one who's ignorant here, but what the heck does WFO stand for???

(I'm going to regret asking, aren't I...)

[Denny]

OK, I still can't figure it out after all these posts... sorry, I'm the one who's ignorant here, but what the heck does WFO stand for???

(I'm going to regret asking, aren't I...)

yep!

Read Kevin's signature and check his WWW

[moxy]

Damn, I figured it out before I could erase my post, then my roommate disconnected me, and... well... I get it now...

Sorry for this silly interruption. Please, carry on. I'm learning quite a bit from this thread, so thanks Jack, Kevin, and everyone else.

[spittle]

So this man, who is on your list of 'uninspiring modern players', is from a line that far pre-dates the fine gents you (Jack) refer to as 'old school' and who themselves were likely wild departures from what their sires and grandsires considered good and proper technique and style.

Also considering the context of early 20th century rural Ireland, I'm also not very convinced of the probablilty that Molloy's dad or grandad would have been wild deviations from what was deemed to be flutey in the area. Perhaps you have evidence to substantiate your statement?

Nope, nothing hard to substatiate this Eld, just musings on my part . But it sounds like you have nothing to counter this point concretely either - care to discuss what you mean by the 'context of early 20th (19th?) century rural Ireland', and how it would not have produced a progression of the tradition?

'Wildly' differing styles I suppose, needs to be taken into the context given that since through history, changes in cultures occur more rapidly up to modern times because of how exponential advances in technology 'speed up' our lives. So it stands to reason, that while Matt's granddad and dad's style wouldn't sound too different from one generation to the next (perhaps especially compared to the the style he developed himself) to our modern ear, there were likely distinct departures or progressions of the tradition within their culture, at their time. Unfortunately, I don't think we can ever know.

I had a question that I wished Cara had asked in her recent interview with MM. It concerns how did he develop his style and why was it such a stylistic departure from what you would hear coming from his old teachers and mentors in the area eg. Peter Horan, Josie McDermott.

I agree! I hope someone has a chance to ask him this in the future, THAT would be an interesting answer!

Just to play the devils advocate a bit, how does playing the Irish flute obligate me in anyway to continue in whatever sort of tradition it had? Especially so when most of us forum members are non-Irish? Heck the Irish themselves don't seem concerned about it. Moreover most of us have been listening to the slick, studio produced, sanitary, equal tempered music all our lives. The idea of continuing such an alien flute tradition would be a bit irregular.

True, it doesn't jive with the definitions of genuine folk-culture. However, we'll all debate to the end o our days, (the 'Progressives' vs. the 'Bodygaurds of the Tradition') what 'genuine' actually means. I play the music because I'm hypnotised by the sound, and I listen to old and new to expand my horizons culturaly and musically, and likely will till my dying day, for me it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that!

Cheers,
- Ryan

[Eldarion]

Also considering the context of early 20th century rural Ireland, I'm also not very convinced of the probablilty that Molloy's dad or grandad would have been wild deviations from what was deemed to be flutey in the area. Perhaps you have evidence to substantiate your statement?

Nope, nothing hard to substatiate this Eld, just musings on my part . But it sounds like you have nothing to counter this point concretely either - care to discuss what you mean by the 'context of early 20th (19th?) century rural Ireland', and how it would not have produced a progression of the tradition?

In the context of early 20th century rural Ireland, as in when transportation in between counties or even villages was not so easily done, nor very widespread. Nor was there mass media. Where the context in which the music lived in was less of that of a performance culture, but more of part of your way of life. You'd got your music from the musicians in your area or frequented your area. Amongst musicians, tunes were considered valuable and held more personal meaning.

In such a context, where the passing on of the music is of a conservative nature, it is logical to assume that "wild departures" were less likely to happen. That said, I wouldn't say that there was "no progression in the tradition". Living traditions don't stagnate because of the different people that carry on with the tradition inevitably add their personal stamp onto the music - while keeping the music in spirit of those from who came before. Nothing as contrived as deliberately doing things to make the tradition "progress" is required (edit: for the tradition not to stagnate).

'Wildly' differing styles I suppose, needs to be taken into the context given that since through history, changes in cultures occur more rapidly up to modern times because of how exponential advances in technology 'speed up' our lives. So it stands to reason, that while Matt's granddad and dad's style wouldn't sound too different from one generation to the next (perhaps especially compared to the the style he developed himself) to our modern ear, there were likely distinct departures or progressions of the tradition within their culture, at their time.

Ah after your disclaimer about the complex relativistic usage of "wildly", I can perhaps say that we are in agreement after all.

[greenspiderweb]

Thanks to you Jack for this topic. I just started to listen to Irish music in the last year or so, and have had very little exposure to the old traditional players, so for that I was ignorant. I plan now to try to find some of the examples cited by you and the others. At least now I have a list of people I would like to listen to (old and new), and see what I think of them. There have always been outstanding musicians in any time period that people never hear about unless they are pointed in the right direction, and for that, I am thankful.

I have been listening to the WFO cds, and find it very enjoyable listening to hear how different people play. I like a minority of tunes and players, because I'm pretty picky when it comes to style and tone, and an appealing tune. I personally like the slower tunes best. So far I have marked about 20 tunes I like to listen to from the WFO 1&2 (4 cds) that I find enjoyable to listen to. Most I like for the tune, but only a few for the tone of the flute. I really enjoy listening for the tone, when I find one that really grabs me. Of course, the style has much to do with enjoyment for me also-not too jazzy, not too notey, not played as fast as you can think a note-to get a combination that I love, is rare, and yes, the accompaniement is key to enjoying a tune or not.

I'm not a traditionalist in the sense that I will learn to play only from the old masters, and build up a repertoire of all the standard tunes for playing in sessions, because I play at home, by myself, for my own enjoyment and sanity. I want to hear what appeals to me, and play some of the same tunes on my flute if I have the ability. If not, I'll just play what I can with the tone that pleases me, and work on the ones I can't play well. Since I'm just beginning the flute, it's kind of equal right now-hard to get the tone I want, and hard to play what I want! But, I show some promise, thankfully. It's a lovely instrument, and I'm glad it found me!

Even though the recording quality of the old ones are far below what I usually like (which can be distracting to me in an old recording), the good music, style, and superb playing will come through, I know. So, maybe I will find some old player(s) I can really connect to and appreciate. If I get a better understanding of the music that helps to build on my playing and listening enjoyment, that's great! Let me listen!

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

If they'd not been instrumental (at least Molloy) in bringing the Irish flute to the masses, you might be asking why we electric guitar players aren't all emulating Hendrix.

Stuart

Actually, if you want to debate the guitar question ad nauseam, check out the forum called Harmony Central. There's a certain body of forumites there who are just as "tradition" oriented as anybody here, except that they are far more childish about it, and "tradtion" was officially killed off by Curt Cobain.

The basic guitar orthodoxy holds that "good' guitar playing is blooz-based rawk (Zeppelin, AC-DC), or '80s technical hair-metal shred (Eddie Van Halen through Yngwie Malmsteen) or jazz-fusion. Anything else (REM, Sonic Youth, Nirvana) are worthy of contempt.

It's very entertaining to see similar questions in an Irish music forum.

Hmmm...Your friends on Harmony Central don't seem to have heard of Vini Reily of the Durutti Column, then...

It's funny, sometimes I think I like old, rough flute players for the same reason I like Punk "make an F-shape with yer fingers and f**kin' go at it" guitarists...
I quite like some of Josie McDermott's old stuff and also Peadar O' Loughlin. Marcas O Murchu and Harry Bradley are the sheep's cajones.

My favorite three flute players (in no particular order):

-Marcas O Murchu
-Harry Bradley
-Desi Wilkinson

What's funny is that they're all from Belfast.

Just for the hell of it, my favorite three guitarists (probably none of whom would be at all welcome in the annals of Harmony Central)

-Bernard Sumner (Joy Division/New Order)
-Johnny Marr (The Smiths)
-Vini Reily (The Durutti Column)

What's funny is that they're all from Manchester.

"I like what I like and I don't like what I don't like. Even if it's something that I'm supposed to like."
-Desi Wilkinson

"Isn't that horrible?"
-Bernard Sumner (on Led Zeppelin)

[Wormdiet]

I just downloaded the Paddy Carty "Tradional Music" album.

GOod stuff!

The accompaniment could be a little more varied though

[andrewK]

I see that you like old rough fluteplayers, TheSportingetc.
It might help forum members if you were to say which ( if any or either ) sex ( or should I say gender ) you are.