Larsen's Book: What's the straight dope?

[tin tin]

I would suggest not...if nothing new is allowed to enter the tradition (flutes themselves were new at one point), the tradition is no longer living and evolving, at which point it will become a type of music from a particular time.
There is of course a fine balance between new and old that must be struck, but I think it can be dangerous to go too far on either side.

[norseman]

When and where do they hold the secret ITMG (Irish Traditional Music Guardians) meetings, and how do I get invited? Will there be media coverage?

[AaronMalcomb]

Well Aaron, rolls and the like are flute ornaments because flute players have been using them for over a hundred years but crans are a product of the Molloy/Crawford/etc influence. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't currently have any sources to cite for you but crans on the flute were probably used before Molloy even if they were imported from piping. And for all of Crawford's ultra-modern style, he knows a lot about the tradition and if you dropped him into a session full of geezers I have a hunch our ears wouldn't be able pick him out of the mix. But I have to say Jack, I like your shrewd approach to the tradition. It's refreshing that your not another Molloy/McGoldrick/Egan clone.

When and where do they hold the secret ITMG (Irish Traditional Music Guardians) meetings, and how do I get invited? Will there be media coverage?

If you have to ask, then you'll never know.

Cheers,
Aaron

[rh]

And for all of Crawford's ultra-modern style, he knows a lot about the tradition and if you dropped him into a session full of geezers I have a hunch our ears wouldn't be able pick him out of the mix.

Listen to him with Moving Cloud, for example. You might get a whole different take on him. I get the sense that, while he has technique to burn, he's a real student of the music.

[MurphyStout]

Is there anything intrinsically wrong/negative/bad about using piping ornaments beyond the fact that they may be relatively new for fluters?

No, but I'm interested in the flute playing tradition and the people I admire and listen to don't use crans, they do other things which are equally nice. James Murray said it's not what you put in but maybe what you leave out.

[Nanohedron]

Is there anything intrinsically wrong/negative/bad about using piping ornaments beyond the fact that they may be relatively new for fluters?

Not to me there isn't, so long as they don't sound silly when you do them. I crann a couple of different ways or so. And I don't crann at all. It depends. Whatever works to support the tune in the way it speaks to me is what counts, I think.

[Wormdiet]

Is there anything intrinsically wrong/negative/bad about using piping ornaments beyond the fact that they may be relatively new for fluters?

No, but I'm interested in the flute playing tradition and the people I admire and listen to don't use crans, they do other things which are equally nice. James Murray said it's not what you put in but maybe what you leave out.

Fair enough

I was thinking seriously about this after my somewhat flip remark above.

The ultimate question is - at what point does innovation become harmful to tradition? Obviously it's a subjective thing (Unless you play GHB in competitions).

[Eldarion]

Crans being used on the flute even before being imported from piping - that might be pushing it a bit I think.

I think an issue Jack is alluding to is that flute-playing in the past was more stylistically distinct for the instrument and the idea of a flute-playing instrument tradition was stronger. I don't really know how to put it articulately - but there were ways flute players played and ways flute players do not play. Things that flute players did that made them distinctively a flute players. Something like the piping tradition was, and depending who you learn from today, is - the pipers have things that are considered specifically pipery things, and ways of playing that are unique to the instrument.

The thing is, with time, increased travelling, widespread access to commercial recordings, etc, this old instrumental stylistic distinction faded almost totally from flute playing. (to a lesser extent the piping tradition due to the secret-society-like covens of pipers).

And for all of Crawford's ultra-modern style, he knows a lot about the tradition and if you dropped him into a session full of geezers I have a hunch our ears wouldn't be able pick him out of the mix.

I think that depends on whether there are enough geezers to drown him out

[AaronMalcomb]

Crans being used on the flute even before being imported from piping - that might be pushing it a bit I think.

I wasn't suggesting that at all. My point was that crans made their way from pipes to flute before Molloy. I think Willie Clancy is considered by some to have done that.

And for all of Crawford's ultra-modern style, he knows a lot about the tradition and if you dropped him into a session full of geezers I have a hunch our ears wouldn't be able pick him out of the mix.

I think that depends on whether there are enough geezers to drown him out

I literally think Crawford can and would play old school style fluting in that context... no tongued triplets or crans or anything. He's a big fan of folks like McEvoy and Rafferty and knows the tradition really well.

Cheers,
Aaron

[Cathy Wilde]

I think anywhere you find a player who crosses over from another instrument at least a little "bleed-through" is a strong possibility. i.e., I bet there were lots of pipers who couldn't help themselves from a few cranns when they played flute ... if nothing else, that's the way they might know a tune, so hey, it translated.

My understanding is that Molloy was one of the first to use cranns so strongly and to such great effect on the flute AND RECORD THEM -- thus, as John Skelton once said, "ruining things" for all the other flute players around at the time.

Anyway, from my own experience -- all my initial ITM learning was from playing with fiddle players, and I still tend to approach tunes that way. It's been interesting to try to learn to play more like a flute player.

But my real goal, I think, would be to play more like a piper. I love how they do stuff.

And yes, I'd say there's no question Kevin C. has the trad chops; that's like saying Cillian Vallely or his brother Niall don't, either (Fintan would be horrified!). You don't survive a feis without 'em, and I'm pretty sure these guys were no strangers to those growing up. Like Frankie Gavin (listen to "Fierce Traditional" for a stellar example of what I'm talking about), they're just pushing the envelope in another direction.

[mcdafydd]

What about in the context of baroque music? I've been wondering myself, how best to play a piece of bach flute music. Baroque offers a lot of room for improvisation and expression on the performer's part, but invariably I would feel like a staunch traditionalist by learning and doing nothing but the most perfectly executed period ornaments. There is a huge importance in playing any music, I believe, in expressing how it makes you feel right now, modern day. Unless, of course, surroundings dictate a need for something different.

And besides, I just love throwing a crann or two into the A part of The Jig of Slurs.

[Wormdiet]

What about in the context of baroque music? I've been wondering myself, how best to play a piece of bach flute music. Baroque offers a lot of room for improvisation and expression on the performer's part, but invariably I would feel like a staunch traditionalist by learning and doing nothing but the most perfectly executed period ornaments. There is a huge importance in playing any music, I believe, in expressing how it makes you feel right now, modern day. Unless, of course, surroundings dictate a need for something different.

And besides, I just love throwing a crann or two into the A part of The Jig of Slurs.

The more this bounces around my head, the more I beleive that innovation per se is never a bad thing. The problem comes in when a "new fad" completely displaces an older but equally interesting/valid/worthwhile way of doings things to the point that the older style vanishes.

Fortunately we live in an era where recording (and thus preserving) styles is possile - not just the sounds, but through precise notation. We can even record discussions and commentary on different styles very easily. There is probably more printed/recorded information on Irish flute playing being done now than at any point in prior history. We may not appreciate all we have now. 50 years from now, some young punk is going to "rediscover" some formerly obscure player and start a new fad. It's all good.

[AaronMalcomb]

50 years from now, some young punk is going to "rediscover" some formerly obscure player and start a new fad. It's all good.

And his name will be Jack Murphy.


Cheers,
Aaron

[The Dude]

.be/eforum/emoticThe Dude found various things of interest/use in the Grey book, but all in all I'd buy Fintan's book first, he explains most of this schtuff just fine, unless you're inherintely confused. Fintan also goes a bit into maintenance - Grey totally ignores it. Flutes are like submarines, one leak and you're finished. I liked the transcriptions, but it was pretty cheeky of Grey to include his own playing in a compendium of Great Performances, too.
And he needs to lose the rug...
The book weighs more than the flute! Oh yeah, he has a lot of advice for players of silver flutes.

[Dr Funkenstein]

Just out of curiousity, does Larsen's book get into descriptions/examples of regional flute styles, or even the historical concept of the flute in Irish traditional music? Do any of the other works mentioned in this thread do the same? I'm looking for sources for some upcoming academic work

--Jeff