Larsen's Book: What's the straight dope?

[fyffer]

Check out Bill Ochs' article on notation and Grey's method in the June 2004 C&F Newsletter. Though I appreciate what Grey is attempting with his method, I was persuaded by Bill Ochs' article.

Cheers,
Aaron

Thanks for that link Aaron -- I for one didn't even know C&F had a newsletter. I read the article, and, having just ordered Larsen's book (it should arrive tomorrow), I will definitely read it (as I do everything) with the proverbial grain of salt. Still, I have lots I need to learn, and if Larsen can get me at least halfway there, that's much more than I can do on my own.

[MurphyStout]

Well I hate to be a dissenting opinion but I think you should listen to Grey's playing before you buy the book and learn from it. You might find that you love his playing or you might find that his playing is... well you know... and decide you don't want to learn from him or learn his take on Irish music.

Personally, I won't say my opinion of Grey Larsen's playing

[Henke]

I'm not a huge fan of Grey's playing myself (altough I like it better than many other pro's out there), but have you read the book yourself Murphy? Even if Grey goes in depth on almost everything, I haven't ever got the feeling that he uses lots of his own ornamentation techniques that goes outside the tradition. All ornaments covered are those that almost all pro players I've heard frequently use. I think everything is kept very traditional, I think this was taken into concern by Grey himself when he wrote it. It's not just the ornamentation, but everything. He often refer to other players as well, such as Mr. Molloy for example, and their style of playing. I think he tries to keep a very neutral aproach to everything, and I think he does it very well.

[NicoMoreno]

He often refer to other players as well, such as Mr. Molloy for example, and their style of playing.

Yeah, but Jack doesn't like Mr. Molloy either.

[MurphyStout]

No, I haven't read the book and I'm not about to either. Your ear and a few good pointers will do you more good than reading a gianormous book that was written by somebody who may or may not know what he's doing.

[norseman]

I haven't listened enough to Grey's playing to form much of an opinion yet.

However, I think that I can learn a great deal from a good teacher regardless of whether I like their style as a performer. That seems pretty independent to me.

My take on Grey's book is that it attempts to more clearly document and explain existing ornamentation techniques rather than presenting any new techniques. As someone who was new to both the music and the whistle/flute, I find it a good resource.

[MurphyStout]

My take on Grey's book is that it attempts to more clearly document and explain existing ornamentation techniques rather than presenting any new techniques. As someone who was new to both the music and the whistle/flute, I find it a good resource.

Yes, but there is more than one way to roll, and breath and there are countless different rthyhms and grooves. Your ear can tell you the differences between them and a book cannot.

[Cathy Wilde]

When it comes to matters of this nature, I think the old adage of "Take what you like and leave the rest" applies very well: i.e., there's some value in most everything, including this massive tome, but rarely is anything totally valuable to everyone.

(Excepting maybe Sturob's new Olwell )

[Henke]

No, I haven't read the book and I'm not about to either. Your ear and a few good pointers will do you more good than reading a gianormous book that was written by somebody who may or may not know what he's doing.

I would normaly not respect anyone expressing an opinion without having any ground to stand on, you have not read the book so you can't really critisize it, but you seem to make a few good points. Agreed, one need not know the science behind a car to drive it well, but it never hurts. I would say I'm a better player now than I was a year ago, and the book has been a great help, it's a great resource. I also listen extensively to other players, and I'm always grateful for pointers from experienced players. I believe that Grey does not grab anything from thin air, he definetely knows what he's doing. I don't really know who you are, but my guess would be that Grey has a helluvalot more knowledge about this music than you do, a knowledge he's gained from oral tradition and years of research. This book have things to teach all players, no matter what their skill level is.

[Father Emmet]

Your ear can tell you the differences between them and a book cannot.

Yes, quite right. I find the CD's giving many examples of different ornaments that come with the book to be even more helpful than the book itself. 8 pages describing a crann are not as good as one sound clip. I look at it as the book illuminates the CDs, not the other way around, and as a beginner I find the set is very helpful (although I don't use it much).

[phcook]

Well, I found this book verrrry udeful, especially because I can't find any teacher here. The notation for ornamentation is very useful, and, depending on how you can play, you can skip some chapters.

The man himself is wonderful and will give you further explanation if you need it.

For cranning on D, I prefer
xxxxxx
xxoxxx
xxxxxx
xxxoxx
xxxxxx
xxxxox
xxxxxx

And on E
xxxxx
xxoxx
xxxxx
xxxox
xxxxx
xxxxo
xxxxx

Perhaps a bad habit of piping.

Best wishes

[chas]

I was quite excited about the book when I first got it, and loved the first chapter or two. Overall, I've been quite disappointed. I find the CD's about as useless as tits on a boar hog. I expected, upon seeing all the transcriptions in the back, that the CD's had recordings of people actually playing tunes on them -- there aren't, it's only Larsen playing the exercises in the book. Hearing ornaments with no context -- I know what I'm supposed to be doing mechanically, it's the context that I need to work on.

Yes, Larsen does go into context some, but the way he presents things appears to be black and white. 30 pages on holding the flute and 13 pages on holding the whistle. One way presented as though it's the ONLY way to hold the flute. As my teacher said, "Yes that might work well if you're built like Grey Larsen, but I could never hold the flute that way." (Garry Shannon plays left-handed [which he's not] and rests the flute on his shoulder -- it works for him.) His take on how to do ornaments is, likewise, fine for him (all cuts and short rolls start with a tongue or glottal, for example), but his take isn't universally, nor I believe, even widely accepted.

I would never discourage anyone from using this book, but be aware that Larsen's take on things isn't God's own truth.

[rama]

what's wrong with fintan vallely's 'timber' or hammy hamilton's guide to irish fluteplaying? two good reliable sources, no 'stray roots' either

[norseman]

Yes, Larsen does go into context some, but the way he presents things appears to be black and white. 30 pages on holding the flute and 13 pages on holding the whistle. One way presented as though it's the ONLY way to hold the flute. As my teacher said, "Yes that might work well if you're built like Grey Larsen, but I could never hold the flute that way." (Garry Shannon plays left-handed [which he's not] and rests the flute on his shoulder -- it works for him.) His take on how to do ornaments is, likewise, fine for him (all cuts and short rolls start with a tongue or glottal, for example), but his take isn't universally, nor I believe, even widely accepted.

I would never discourage anyone from using this book, but be aware that Larsen's take on things isn't God's own truth.

I didn't perceive Grey to have a really hardcore "my way or the highway" approach in his book. He does give his preferences, but does a good job of explaining his reasons. The one thing I wish he would have expanded on is using the piper hold for the left hand. He says it's one of the two widely used approaches, shows a picture of it and a brief description of it, but skips the same thorough approach he used for the normal hold.

I like to find several resources on any subject to get a better handle on the range of possibilities, and then decide what works best for me.

[beowulf573]

what's wrong with fintan vallely's 'timber' or hammy hamilton's guide to irish fluteplaying? two good reliable sources, no 'stray roots' either

Timber is a good book and well worth buying, but not as detailed as Larsen's, and Hammy's isn't available unless you luck into a used copy on ebay.