What's wrong with Israel?

[MurphyStout]

Excellent post Darwin.

[Jeff Stallard]

The Palestinians were very much in the position of the Native Americans from 1492 on.

Interesting connection. If the argument is about who owns the land, and there's a clear connection to US history, maybe we should be asking the question, "Does the United States own the United States?" They conquered it, colonized it, and held it. Besides the fringe element that says you can't own anything in this world, would anyone seriously suggest that Americans do not own the United States?

That's the real question here, not who lived there FIRST, but what does it take to establish ownership. Define ownership and you'll solve this problem.

I wish they'd just fight and be done with it. It's like two kids in the school cafeteria who are pushing each other around. They won't actually FIGHT, but they'll scream and yell and disrupt everyone's lunch. If they would just fight already, it would be over very quickly and everything would calm down. Hmm...maybe it's in everyone's best interests to keep the shoving match going..?

[Darwin]

The Palestinians were very much in the position of the Native Americans from 1492 on.

Interesting connection. If the argument is about who owns the land, and there's a clear connection to US history, maybe we should be asking the question, "Does the United States own the United States?" They conquered it, colonized it, and held it. Besides the fringe element that says you can't own anything in this world, would anyone seriously suggest that Americans do not own the United States?

That's the real question here, not who lived there FIRST, but what does it take to establish ownership. Define ownership and you'll solve this problem.

I wish they'd just fight and be done with it. It's like two kids in the school cafeteria who are pushing each other around. They won't actually FIGHT, but they'll scream and yell and disrupt everyone's lunch. If they would just fight already, it would be over very quickly and everything would calm down. Hmm...maybe it's in everyone's best interests to keep the shoving match going..?

A bold suggestion.

What it takes to establish ownership, based on the US model, is to wipe out as many of the current inhabitants as possible, restrict the remainder to some undesirable area, and just move in.

So, you're right. A little genocide on either side might tidy things up a bit.

Unfortunately, wiping out the Palestinians probably wouldn't go down that well with a lot of Arabs (the same ones, of course, who don't care enough about them to accept them as citizens in their own countries). Even Muslims in general might take offense--or at least their national leaders might take the opportunity to distract attention from their own shorcomings. This is a problem that Europeans didn't have with the Native Americans. They didn't have a bunch of closely related people sitting around the perimeter threatening the colonists.

I suppose the destruction of Israel would have fewer international side effects--except for its effect on those Christians who are depending on the restoration of Israel to bring us up to the End Time. Lots of non-Israeli Jews might take it badly, though.

But, since neither side seems to have a controlling majority that sincerely desires peace, I figure there's a good chance that we're going to see something close to genocide again at some point. If both sides get wiped out, maybe the Northern Irish Protestants, the Tutsi, and the Tamil of Sri Lanka could be moved into the area. Or, perhaps some Native Americans--those who got stuck with reservations that don't have good oil and mineral resources, and that aren't in good areas for casinos--would like to have it in exchange for what their ancestors lost?

One way to global peace would be to destroy all but one small, highly-cohesive group of people, and let them spread out to repopulate the world. On second thought, though, that's what happened with Noah's family after the Flood, and look how that's turned out.

[s1m0n]

I believe it has something to do with the fact that Israel as a government is the only democracy in the Middle East.

"Democracy" is Israel is like the "democracy" in apartheidt South Africa--a privilege limited to a small group determined by race.

This may have been acceptable in the age of classical Athens, but it is not a true democracy today.

~~~

Israel's conception as a jewish state has placed it fundamentally counter to democratic principles since inception, given that the population was and remains non-homogenous.

[PhilO]

Gee, back in 1948, the Palestinians could have had their half of the land now called Israel, but turned it down. In almost 57 years their great contribution seems to be suicide bombing. They don't really want that though; they want the destruction of Israel - read their charter; I don't believe it's ever changed.

What a moronic pathetic over simplfied comparison - Nazi Germany and Israel. Yeah Az, keep up the deep thinking amid memory loss; I love it.

Philo

[Jeff Stallard]

"Democracy" is Israel is like the "democracy" in apartheidt South Africa--a privilege limited to a small group determined by race.

Who is the oppressed majority in Israel? Arabs? Israel gives equal status to its Arab population (~25% of the overall population I think). Not only that, but it's one of the FEW countries in the Middle East that lets Arab women vote. I believe Arabic is even an official language of Israel (can someone confirm that?).

I just did a little digging, and here's an interesting fact I never knew:
The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren.

Here's one more quote: “One does not judge a democracy by the way its soldiers immediately react, young men and women under tremendous provocation. One judges a democracy by the way its courts react, in the dispassionate cool of judicial chambers. And the Israeli Supreme Court and other courts have reacted magnificently. For the first time in Mideast history, there is an independent judiciary willing to listen to grievances of Arabs — that judiciary is called the Israeli Supreme Court.” — Alan Dershowitz

So again...who is it that's supposed to be oppressed in Israel?

[Azalin]

What a moronic pathetic over simplfied comparison - Nazi Germany and Israel. Yeah Az, keep up the deep thinking amid memory loss; I love it.

What I love is getting insults when I try to be polite, happens a lot these days.

[Jeff Stallard]

Unfortunately, wiping out the Palestinians probably wouldn't go down that well with a lot of Arabs (the same ones, of course, who don't care enough about them to accept them as citizens in their own countries).

Yeah, that's probably true, but not because they love Palenstinians. It's because it means the Zionists would be gaining power in the region. They would, understandably, not want that to happen. But I guess the reason isn't important in this case, only the fact that they wouldn't let it happen.

[blackhawk]

Gee, back in 1948, the Palestinians could have had their half of the land now called Israel, but turned it down. In almost 57 years their great contribution seems to be suicide bombing. They don't really want that though; they want the destruction of Israel - read their charter; I don't believe it's ever changed.

Philo

So, Philo, how does it feel to agree with me on something? I hope it doesn't damage your self esteem.

[blackhawk]

What a moronic pathetic over simplfied comparison - Nazi Germany and Israel. Yeah Az, keep up the deep thinking amid memory loss; I love it.

What I love is getting insults when I try to be polite, happens a lot these days.

Just for the record, I wasn't referring to Philo's comment about you, Az. I was referring to his Isreal comment.

[s1m0n]

Who is the oppressed majority in Israel? Arabs? Israel gives equal status to its Arab population (~25% of the overall population I think). Not only that, but it's one of the FEW countries in the Middle East that lets Arab women vote. I believe Arabic is even an official language of Israel (can someone confirm that?).

I just did a little digging, and here's an interesting fact I never knew:
The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren.

That's FAR from the sole legal distinction, even in the laws as they are written. You have been spun. More importantly, however, there are an even greater number of unequal quasi-laws.

Israel has, like South Africa, manipulated citizenship rights in order to deny voting rights to a substantial population of the population. Furthermore, the are enormous differences in the privileges afforded to israel's Jewish and non-jewish populations, from special laws relating to land ownership--or even tenure--to immigration law.

An Israeli jew, for instance, may marry and obtain residence status (or even citizenship) for a foreign-born spouse; a right expressly denied to non-jewish citizens under the law.

An Israeli arab who marries someone from the occupied territories can never obtain legal rights for their spouse; if the couple wishes to live together, they will have to move to the territories, or elsewhere in the world.

[Azalin]

Just for the record, I wasn't referring to Philo's comment about you, Az. I was referring to his Isreal comment.

Don't worry Blackhawk, I know you love me

[blackhawk]

Just for the record, I wasn't referring to Philo's comment about you, Az. I was referring to his Isreal comment.

Don't worry Blackhawk, I know you love me

[Flyingcursor]

That's Azalin

Damn. Just call me Dan Quayle.
I really wanted to mend the burning bridges.

[brewerpaul]

There's something I don't understand at all. With all of the bad stuff that happened to the jews in the second world war, why is Israel practically doing the same thing to the palestinians? Invading lands, destroying properties, army shooting innocent people as colateral damage? ---end quote
The goal of all of those things is to stop the terrorist suicide bombings. Actually, call them what they REALLY are :HOMICIDE bombings. One lone bomber tries to kill as many innocent men, women and children as possible. Granted, some of the Israeli actions have included unintentional and tragic deaths of uninvolved people, but the Israeli attacks are aimed at the militants who tragically and cowardly hide right in the midst of populated civilian areas. When did you ever hear of an Israeli suicide bomber getting on a Palestinian bus and blowing himself and 20 other people to smithereens?
[quote: I thought that if one nation knew better than this it would be Israel. Instead, israelis are marching in the streets of Israel to protest against giving palestinians their land back. Anyway, I really don't get it.

One thing that Israel has learned from 3000 years of Jewish history is that if they don't watch out for themselves, NOBODY else is going to do it. I've read an analogy which compares the size of Israel to a postage stamp sitting in the middle of a football field compared to it's Arab neighbors.Much of the reluctance to vacate occupied Palestinian lands is related to the desire to create a safety buffer, as has been mentioned by other posters. Also, Israeli settlers in these areas have actually SETTLED there-- created viable, working communities and homes where none existed before. Their hesitancy to leave is understandable (although I personally believe that in the interests of a lasting peace, they should do so).

I sincerely hope that the recent signs of the Palestinians actually reining in the militants will bring such a lasting peace and that Israelis and Palestinians can live along side each other in harmony. Both sides are children of Abram, and the family feud has gone on long enough.