what humidity and how do you keep it?

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GaryKelly
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Post by GaryKelly »

jim stone wrote: If you are appalled by unscientific claims being made
on a message board on flutes, you will not get through
the day mentally intact--given so much of what's
going on in the world.
It's symptomatic of much wider issues. People believe too easily anything told to them by an 'authority figure', particularly if the material is presented as 'science'. Whether it's the AEC telling the world not to worry because Mr Atom is our friend, and that all those nukerler tests in Nevada are absolutely nothing to worry about (people believed all that, y'know), right through to genetic engineering.

People have even believed world leaders when they boldly pronounced on such things as "Weapons of Mass Destruction." Blindly wandering through life accepting everything you're told by 'authority figures', asking no questions, raising no arguments, being silent, refusing to challenge the status quo, acquiescing meekly even when you know something's wrong, keeping silent for fear of offending 'them'... that is appalling. Maybe there's something in common here with the Holocaust you mentioned.

But back to flutes. How often have we seen posts like "Time for a Wooden Flute", "Time to upgrade", "Which flute should I buy?"

Aspiring players considering a wooden flute have a lot of "flute-lore" to wade through. For many, the prospect of oiling a wooden flute is simply too daunting, for the five-minute job of reality is blown out of all proportion by popular myth into some kind of Quest.

If they then read a post by a well-respected Maker, whose work is owned and admired by many here at C&F, saying "My experiments prove conclusively that after three or four days at RH20% your flute will destroy itself!" who do you think they'll believe, the Maker, or some gadger from Swindon they've never heard of? Particularly if they live in a region where low RH is perfectly normal.
Image "It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
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BMFW
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Post by BMFW »

GaryKelly wrote:It's symptomatic of much wider issues. People believe too easily anything told to them by an 'authority figure', particularly if the material is presented as 'science'. Whether it's the AEC telling the world not to worry because Mr Atom is our friend, and that all those nukerler tests in Nevada are absolutely nothing to worry about (people believed all that, y'know), right through to genetic engineering.

People have even believed world leaders when they boldly pronounced on such things as "Weapons of Mass Destruction." Blindly wandering through life accepting everything you're told by 'authority figures', asking no questions, raising no arguments, being silent, refusing to challenge the status quo, acquiescing meekly even when you know something's wrong, keeping silent for fear of offending 'them'... that is appalling. Maybe there's something in common here with the Holocaust you mentioned.
It's official - Garry Kelly is the new Andrew!...........Relative Humidity becomes WMD, temperature becomes genetic engineering, wooden flutes signify the Holocaust............Hold tight boys!!!!!!
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Terry McGee
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Post by Terry McGee »

andrewK wrote:There are a few slides I want to remove, for various reasons.
Have you actually had great problems with the process ? Terry.
Mr Wilkes was to give me a lesson the other night, but we didn't get round to it. Pity. I hope to practice on lesser flutes in the course of crack repair.
Do you find the burrs actually foul the wood or the shellac fixing ?
I routinely remove slides from cracked flutes - even that can be troublesome, especially if the well-meaning owner has poured lots of glue down the crack! I haven't tried to remove a slide from a flute that hasn't cracked. I can imagine it won't be easy. It's been there over 150 years and the wood has shrunk onto the burrs - like getting a porcupine out of a sock.

I'm not aware of shellac fixing, but I haven't gone looking for it. There is always a lot of verdigris (copper hydroxide and similar compounds I guess). If they had shellac-ed them in, would they have needed the burrs? (Just asking, don't know!)

Terry
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GaryKelly
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Post by GaryKelly »

Ok. On to Terry's last post.

First let me begin by saying this: The foundation of scientific research is Peer Review, it has been since the early days of the Royal Society. You can't simply announce "I've made a room-temperature semiconductor! Hurrah for me!" or "I've cloned a human embryo using nothing but common kitchen utensils!" You have to present more than a claim, and more than just results. Your peers then analyse your methods, and attempt to replicate your findings. If they can, then Peer Review substantiates your claims. If they can't, they'll investigate why they can't when you said you could.

Now to the substance.

Terry et al, leaving aside my (perfectly legitimate and still unanswered) objections (Terry's given us nothing but results and no methodology, see above) the latest argument presented is based on an entirely false premise. Let's consider this:
Terry McGee wrote:My measurements indicate that a 30% drop in humidity produces a shrinkage in a blackwood head of around 0.4mm (on the worst axis) and 0.2mm on the opposing axis. Of course it's the worst axis that concerns us, so let's take the 0.4mm figure. Now that's on the outside of the head, let's recalculate it for the inside of the head. Assuming there is going to be a liner, we can take that as 20mm. That would suggest 0.3mm shrinkage will occur in the wood at the outside of the liner.

BFMW's expansion figure for a silver liner was 0.00002 mm/mm/degree C. The liner is 20mm diameter, so that becomes 0.0004mm degree C for the liner diameter. 750 degree rise would produce a 0.3mm diameter increase.
What's effectively being said here is this:

"All blackwood headjoints will shrink by 0.4mm and suffer catastrophic failure if they are subject to a 30% reduction in RH. A metal liner would need to be heated to ridiculous temperatures to effect the same catastrophic result, so we can forget the liner and temperature increases."

Can you not see that this is entirely wrong, even on a common-sense level? Those folks who keep their blackwood flutes encased in a tupperware box along with a wet sponge will subject their flutes to much greater than a 30% RH humidity swing the moment they take it out of the box on any number of days. Without ill effect, and without massive shrinkage of the flute occurring. That's a simple observation made every day by people all over the world.

A metal liner doesn't have to expand by 0.3mm to cause cracking. Let me give you an analogy using a commonplace model most people will be familiar with:

Remember the 'old' water sprinkler systems used as 'automatic' fire protection? They worked like this: A small, sealed, glass bulb filled with alcohol (coloured with a red dye) sat in the sprinkler head. The bulb held shut a spring-loaded valve.

If a fire broke out, the alcohol in the bulb would begin to expand as temperatures rose. The glass bulb would shatter, the spring-loaded valve would pop open, and water would spray out (hopefully extinguishing the fire).

Alcohol expands significantly as temperature rises. It has a low boiling-point. So how much did the alcohol expand before the glass bulb broke? It didn't expand at all. The glass bulb contained the liquid, preventing its expansion. Pressure built up on the surface area of the inside of the glass bulb, until finally the bulb burst.

What's this got to do with lined wooden headjoints? A flute isn't a glass bulb, certainly. But here's another everyday commonplace model to consider:

The plastic rule. You've probably done this yourself, I know I have. Consciously or otherwise sat flexing a plastic rule(r). Bending it back and forth. At first you can bend it quite a lot. But *some time* later, you're sat there flexing it and suddenly it shatters, loudly and violently. Loads of kids have been startled out of a classroom daydream by that kind of thing.

The wooden flute with a metal liner. Well, subjecting that liner to a sudden 30 deg F increase in temperature (which is a certainly a commonplace event in my home, centrally-heated to 68 deg F) will make the liner expand. Granted, not by much. But bear in mind that the alcohol in the glass bulb did not expand at all when heated, it was constrained by the glass tube walls. Thus, even a miniscule amount of thermal expansion can produce a significant pressure along the entire length of the liner through the headjoint and barrel.

How much pressure? I don't know. This is why I mentioned Young's Modulus, a measure of the 'stiffness' of a material (or indeed it's flexibility, if you like). In the case of the glass bulb, the 'stiffness' of the glass prevents it expanding. Pressure increases until it ruptures.
In the case of a wooden flute, pressure builds up, trying to burst open the headjoint and barrel. But wood isn't glass, it's elastic modulus is entirely different. Like the plastic rule, it can flex. A little. But like the plastic rule, is it such a stretch to conclude that after a certain (currently unknown) number of cycles of pressure and release, the wood will crack? That's what stress fractures are.

This is basic physics.

Of course, no two pieces of wood are the same. No two makers are the same, and no maker of anything can make two things which are absolutely identical. The flute that splits the first time it's played (irrespective of local humidity) may well do so because the wood contains a flaw, or because it's been stressed sufficiently throughout its life to take it to that critical point.

For what it's worth, the improved tuning slide that Terry uses, with its cork lapping expansion joint, is a great idea. If the liner expands when warm, the cork will compress, relieving the pressure experienced by the headjoint.

Terry McGee wrote:Now, having discounted temperature, we do have to remember that an increase in temperature will reduce the relative humidity in the air, and that drop in relative humidity is what might crack your flute. To clarify that apparent contradiction - a short term change in temperature is not a problem. A long term change (eg running the central heating for weeks in winter) will be, as it reduces the humidity of the air for that long period, long enough for the flute to dry out, shrink and crack.
Discounting temperature is wrong. a short change in temperature *is* a problem. It builds pressure, then relieves it. Stress-fracture in the making.

And the statement that raising the temperature of air reduces its RH is completely wrong too.

One Litre of air at 20 deg C can hold more water vapour than one Litre of air at 10 deg C. Which means if you place a wet sponge in a 1L container at 10 dec C and wait, the RH might rise to as high as 80% and stay there. If you turn up the central heating to 20 dec C, the relative humidity of that 1L of air in the box will *rise*, because the warmer air is able to hold more water vapour.

And the statement "a drop in relative humidity is what might crack your flute" is an opinion, which later becomes a definitive statement of fact: "A long term change (eg running the central heating for weeks in winter) will be, as it reduces the humidity of the air for that long period, long enough for the flute to dry out, shrink and crack."

Again, that's an opinion which hasn't been tested yet. I have a G flute in mopane with tuning slide and silver rings I haven't played for a long time (too long a time actually) which I looked at last night, in my flat which has had central heating running since last October and RH hovering around the 30-35% mark. It hasn't dried out, shrunk, or cracked. Making statements which sound definitive, based on a proven faulty premise, isn't right.

For what it's worth, I have started controlled experiments myself. Phase one is complete, and I expect there'll be more as time progresses. Could take a week or two, so if the thread dies out please forgive me for popping it up again later when my tests are done.

Cathy and others are quite right; this is important to all of us who own wooden flutes. It's also important not to deter prospective players from taking up the wooden flute by making unsubstantiated claims.

Looking forward to continuing the discussion.
Image "It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
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GaryKelly
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Post by GaryKelly »

Terry McGee wrote:
andrewK wrote: Do you find the burrs actually foul the wood or the shellac fixing ?
....and the wood has shrunk onto the burrs - like getting a porcupine out of a sock.

... If they had shellac-ed them in, would they have needed the burrs? (Just asking, don't know!)

Terry
With apologies for snipping stuff out but...

Are you chaps now telling me that the liners are not simple cylinders, but have 'burrs' which press into the walls of the headjoint and barrel?

Given all my talk about pressure and stress-fractures, you're now telling me that sharp pointy penetrating stress-risers have been deliberately built in to the things???
Image "It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
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Post by Whistlin'Dixie »

Ummmm.... :roll:


I'm currently learning a new tune that I'm really enjoying, The Chicken That Made the Soup.
Anybody else have a tune they are particularly fond of these days?

M
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Post by le_koukou »

I saw only one liner separated from the wooden head. It was on an antic German flute. Indeed, the external surface of the liner was scratched in order to creat burrs. I looks like the goal was to prevent the liner to move relatively to the head.

Not only they are ticking bombs but moreover they have built-in sharpnels in the form of tiny burrs...

Anyway if your flute cracked with a bang it is probably because you stored it into a gun-case...
Last edited by le_koukou on Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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andrewK
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Post by andrewK »

I am waiting with baited breath ( or at least tongue hanging out ) for Jim to set his " Warmonger Soup " to music.
Even better perhaps than " Fishmonger soup ".
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Post by dcopley »

GaryKelly wrote:
Are you chaps now telling me that the liners are not simple cylinders, but have 'burrs' which press into the walls of the headjoint and barrel?

Given all my talk about pressure and stress-fractures, you're now telling me that sharp pointy penetrating stress-risers have been deliberately built in to the things???
Unfortunately this practice is still followed. I recently rebuilt a barrel joint which had cracked. The flute was 4 years old. The barrel liner had burrs which had created linear scores in the inside surface of the wood. The crack ran from one of these scores through to the outside.

Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio
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Cathy Wilde
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Post by Cathy Wilde »

I for one am loving this. And learning ladlesfull, scientific and otherwise.
Rock on!
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Post by Jayhawk »

Personally, after reading the last few posts about burrs, I'm really glad my wooden flute has no slide!

I, too, am learning lots. Including the fact that Central heating in the British Isles must be vastly different than our forced air natural gas heating which kicks the RH in my house down to the 15% range for four months (despite the RH outside today being 92%)! I think this is the point Andrew was trying to make about the differences in climate (and I'll add household technology) of the British Isles vs. Canada or much of the US.

I am glad people are experimenting with these issues, even if the research isn't always perfect, because these issues are important when you have a several hundred/thousand dollar instrument in your care.

Eric
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Post by andrewK »

I have found a number of cracks on different joints caused by the old makers building or machining little spurs in the inside of the rings to stop them turning, I suppose, & coming off. These seem very good at producing cracks in the adjoining wood.
I shall remove any such spurs or pins I find going into the wood.
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GaryKelly
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Post by GaryKelly »

dcopley wrote:
GaryKelly wrote:
Are you chaps now telling me that the liners are not simple cylinders, but have 'burrs' which press into the walls of the headjoint and barrel?

Given all my talk about pressure and stress-fractures, you're now telling me that sharp pointy penetrating stress-risers have been deliberately built in to the things???
Unfortunately this practice is still followed. I recently rebuilt a barrel joint which had cracked. The flute was 4 years old. The barrel liner had burrs which had created linear scores in the inside surface of the wood. The crack ran from one of these scores through to the outside.

Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio

Thanks Dave,

Well, now the plot thickens, or rather the list of suspects is dramatically reduced. Here's an isochromatic fringe pattern for a thick pressurised ring with four cracks located at the inner wall at 90 degrees to each other.

In other words, it's a "stress photo". Note the tips of the cracks, and the pretty coloured "butterflies" there. Those are areas of maximum stress, with the maximum being right at the tip of the crack, stress desperately trying to spread out.

Now imagine those aren't cracks (yet) but the sharp burrs of metal from the liner poking into the inner tube wall of the wooden headjoint or barrel.
If the liner expands even a fraction (as it will when your breath hits it) those 'butterflies' get bigger, stress radiating outwards, the crack lengthening a tiny bit each time the liner expands and contracts...

Now, all the wooden flutes I own have the grain running lengthwise along the flute. Not surprising, because it's easier to work wood "with the grain". But the grain is also the 'path of least resistance' for stress in wood. So it's no surprise most headjoint/barrel cracks run lengthwise, with the grain, just as in the example Dave kindly gave us.

Image

Now imagine that at the top of the picture there's an embouchure hole cut into the ring. Doesn't take much imagination to realise what'll happen when the stress meets a great big weak-spot in the structure.

Of course, Terry's Improved Tuning Slide is cork-lapped, so not only does it work as a thermal expansion joint, it also has no sharp stress-point initiators or stress risers to penetrate the tube wall and start the cracks in the first place.

I think we're getting closer.
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Post by andrewK »

Another possible factor. The chemical one. I seem to remember cracking associated with old chemical degredation in the tubes. Where they are jointed,for example. The breakdown products will leach into the headjointwood / barrelwood changing it's strength & structure along it's length as well as the old verdigris building up in a linear fashion pushing on the wood.
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Post by sturob »

People actually usually say the opposite about gas versus electric heating. Gas supposedly takes less of the moisture out of the air. Now how that works, I don't know. Often, though, people living in areas with cold climates, and who have central heat, use whole-house humidifiers, don't they? Aprilaire or somesuch here in the US/Canada? I don't think they're all that expensive, and they are governed by a humidistat. You can bring the winter humidity back up to 50% if you like.

Do we even know the inciting event of most flute cracks? I am enjoying the discussion, especially Gary's perseverance, but to the original problem.

I guess I'm now confused as to the real culprit. Does the outside of a lined headjoint dry out, and it shrinks, but the inside stays dry? Or, in an unlined headjoint, does the moisture of the air in the bore cause the inside to expand while the outside is stable? OR, does the metal liner expand with the warmth of the breath while the wooden headjoint doesn't expand?

Getting to the world of the practical observation, it is also my observation that sometimes a flute slide will loosen up when a flute is warm. Now, calculated expansion aside, this change in temperature, which can't be more than 40 Fahrenheit degrees, is significant enough to free up a stuck joint . . .

Hmm.

Stuart
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