what humidity and how do you keep it?

[andrewK]

As regards flutes not affected by temperature. You talk, Terry of exposing flutes to normal extremes of temperature, but then talk of -4 .
If we check with players in Canada ,Scandinavia, my flat ( I am mean with the heating ) the Yukon, Siberia or wherever the Irish flute is played I expect that the outside temperatures through which flutes have to pass ( especially on delivery outside the control of the recipient ) can be much lower than you are accounting for.
Low temperatures compared with much of the rest of the world have been virtually unknown in the UK and Eire in the past 200 years.
I have just sent the Tsunami flute to Toronto with minus 25 degree temperatures !
Henke talks of the same in Sweden.
Flutes being delivered are going down during delivery (and possibly on international flights) to such fearfully low temperatures and lower, then suddenly warmed up when taken into the households of players who live comfortably.
Is this not a likely cause of damage ?

[Terry McGee]

But cannot these lined headjoints be cracked by sudden warming of the tubes ?
I am exercixed by the way headjoints and barrels seem to have cracked together in a line. I imagine it can be the cooling then warming overnight in economically warmed English houses, or flutes being chilled in unheated holds then going out into warm warehouses.
I have a flute with a matching split through the head/ barrel, joined by one of those rotten little fixing spurs in the silver rings ( to locate them ) which seem so often to be the cause of splitting.I am pretty sure that the splits were caused in an auction house when the photographer left the joints too long under the lights , the silver tubes warmed up and .....

If you accept my "ticking time bomb" metaphor - that every lined head or barrel is under stress and is just awaiting an excuse to crack, then it is consistent to believe that the final straw might come in the form of a sudden warming of the tube, stress while assembling the flute, a too-sharp bang on the table at the pub, or a malevolent glance from the fiddle player.

But even if that happens - it's not temperature that caused the flute to crack - it's shrinkage due to lack of humidity. The temperature change (or whatever else) simply tripped over the bomb.

My current experiments showed movements of 1.5% due to a 30% humidity change. You'd need a big change in temperature in the liner tube to get anywhere near that!

Terry

[Terry McGee]

As regards flutes not affected by temperature. You talk, Terry of exposing flutes to normal extremes of temperature, but then talk of -4 .
If we check with players in Canada ,Scandinavia, my flat ( I am mean with the heating ) the Yukon, Siberia or wherever the Irish flute is played I expect that the outside temperatures through which flutes have to pass ( especially on delivery outside the control of the recipient ) can be much lower than you are accounting for.
Low temperatures compared with much of the rest of the world have been virtually unknown in the UK and Eire in the past 200 years.
I have just sent the Tsunami flute to Toronto with minus 25 degree temperatures !
Henke talks of the same in Sweden.
Flutes being delivered are going down during delivery (and possibly on international flights) to such fearfully low temperatures and lower, then suddenly warmed up when taken into the households of players who live comfortably.
Is this not a likely cause of damage ?

Sorry, -4F (-20C) is all our domestic freezer could go down to. But remember the same head also went into the oven at 50C (122F), so that's quite a range over which it suffered no harm.

Aircraft holds pose little concern - the air is the same air as in the cabin (it's impossible to build a lightweight flat partition that could withstand the pressure differences), otherwise your pets would be very dead at the other end of the London to Sydney run. The air in an aircraft is dry however, so popping anything of concern into a sealable plastic bag is a good idea.

Tip to travellers - don't mention the McGee Ticking Time Bomb metaphor to airline staff.

Terry

[andrewK]

These percentages are all too subtle for me.
What happens when a flute comes into a warm house from a transatlantic flight and delivery at minus 25 ?
Or when the heating goes off in my flat and the temperature goes down to levels I can afford them goes up quickly in the morning ?
Would you agree, Terry that an owner of an uncracked Rudall might consider having the headjoint and possibly the barrel as well gently reamed as a precaution against sudden death syndrome ?
Were all the tales of unheated aircraft holds nothing more than that ?
I have heard any number of nasty stories of violins and cellos shrinking on their soundposts and cracking bellies. That is why players have been so keen to pay the full price of a seat for their valuable instrument to keep it out of the hold.

[Lambchop]

You lucky people
living in hot climates are more likely to have flutes cracking because... you live in
nice airconditioned chilly homes where the temperature is what, 68 deg F?

I do not personally know anyone who could afford to keep their homes at 68 deg F. It wouldn't be comfortable here, either, because the humidity is so high. Coming in from the 90+ temperature and humidity outside would be unpleasant--you're damp with perspiration and you'd catch a chill. Besides, most responsible people feel that excessive cooling and heating are ecologically unsound practices.

I cool no lower than 78 deg F, and that only to dry the air out so that my working computer doesn't corrode (lost two that way early on) and household furnishings don't rot. It brings the humidity down to about 60-65%. Enough that the walls don't drip.

[ImNotIrish]

I have an R&R (circa 1840) which recently developed a crack in the foot joint under the block mount for the Eb key. The crack had been repaired before I purchased the flute. I have had the flute for a couple of years, and have had no previous problem with aforementioned crack. I live in NYC and have to deal with temperature extremes and flucuations in heating. I recently moved and am now in a house with a 'forced air' heating system as opposed to radiators, and though I am using humidifiers, I find that the change in heating has become more challenging. It has been very cold in NYC the last couple of weeks and as a result the heat has been somewhat more aggressive (good for me, but...). I did not alter my usual flute care procedure (swabbing, put away in case), nor have I been playing the flute daily either (fiddle practice- I know...). I also have a Nach-Meyer (circa 1880), which seems to be fairing well with little special attention. Go figure. I might add that the R&R has not been out of the house for several weeks.
Arbo

[andrewK]

Does anyone know the sort of low temperature at which wood might become brittle ?
We all see the demonstrations of very low temperatures but the low freezing ones we read of around the world might be enough to make the difference, especially as the cold flute will have gone oval with all the force on two lines along the joint .
I suppose these will usually be through or opposite the mouth hole.

[missa]

in 2 weeks i will be taking my two flutes from bc (west coast of canada, at the moment about 10C) to winnipeg, manitoba (around -30C). i'll be using them for 2-3 shows a day for 9 days. i've heard both sides of this story, and i'm not too sure what i should do to protect my flutes. is there something special i should be doing to keep them safe?

[GaryKelly]

Terry's experiments are miserably flawed, but he seems to be relying on them as definitive proof of his theories.

In the oven/fridge experiment, he did it once. Once. When anyone with even the most basic understanding of mechanical engineering will tell you that stress fractures occur after repeated cycles. Terry: put your flute in the freezer for 8 hours. Then then oven for 8 hours. Repeat continuously. Then come back and tell us how many stress cycles it took before the flute cracked. That's a worthwhile observation. Jeeze, just because a squaddie survives being shot at once doesn't guarantee he won't get his head blown off the next time.

As for your 'scientific' experiment regarding humidity, your deductions are complete nonsense too. For one thing, you had no control experiment. You should have cut the sample in half, exposed one piece to the RH 20% you claim (although you still haven't mentioned keeping temperature and pressure constant, which is absolutely critical where air's ability to hold water vapour is concerned) and left the other piece in a controlled 40% environment. Then reported the results.

You claim your piece of flute lost 6mL of water in 3 days at RH 20%. (you actually said 3 or 4 days, which is not very 'scientific' is it?). That would indicate that your piece of wood lost 2 mL water Per Day at RH 20%

Now, since RH is effectively a measure of how quickly a wet thing will dry (how fast the air will absorb it's moisture) at a given temperature and pressure, we can extrapolate and say that if a piece of wood loses 2mL per day at RH 20%, it'll lose half that, or 1 mL per day at 40% RH.

You said your piece of wood had been sat at average RH 45-50% for "years". Well then Terry, if your 'science' is as correct as you'd have us believe, then that piece of wood should've started life containing nearly 1 Litre of water and weighed a whole kilogram more than it did when you subjected it to RH 20%. I don't think so, do you?

Your arguments concering furniture are entirely specious too. Furniture is waxed and polished, just as flutes are oiled. Why won't you concede that expansion mounts are used to counteract dimension changes resulting from temperature changes? Why do you think roads, bridges, buidings and railway lines all have expansion joints in? It's nothing to do with humidity.

And of course flutes are far more susceptible to temperature variations. The coefficient of thermal expansion of the metals employed is significantly higher than wood. Thus the rate of change of expansion of liners and rings is far higher than the surrounding wood. Elementary physics.

RH is effectively nothing more than a measure of the rate at which a wet thing will dry, for a given temperature and pressure. It's worth saying again. Warm air can absorb a lot more moisture than cold air. That's why it rains, that's what condensation is all about... temperature.

If a wooden flute, broken in, is played regularly, and is well oiled and cared for, fluctuations in RH are irrelevant. Not so if they're left unplayed for years, granted. They'll need to be carefully broken in again. But fluctuations in temperature are critical, particularly if they're lined with metal.

Jeeze, if wood was so good at soaking up water, they wouldn't have been making ships and boats out of the stuff for the last few thousand years. And if wood was as quick to dry out when humidity drops below 90% as you seem to be claiming, they wouldn't have been making houses out of the stuff for the last few thousand years either.

There's also the point that completely unlined wooden flutes seem far less likely to crack than lined ones. I believe andrew is better placed than I to confirm or refute that.

[GaryKelly]

in 2 weeks i will be taking my two flutes from bc (west coast of canada, at the moment about 10C) to winnipeg, manitoba (around -30C). i'll be using them for 2-3 shows a day for 9 days. i've heard both sides of this story, and i'm not too sure what i should do to protect my flutes. is there something special i should be doing to keep them safe?

I'd keep them well wrapped up, missa, especially when travelling. Let them get used to the temperature change slowly (ie don't be in a rush to assemble and play them if you've been obliged to stand out in the cold with them). If you're flying, take them in the cabin with you as a carry-on. Keep yourself well wrapped up too, hopefully you'll not be playing them outdoors!

[andrewK]

Garry is right. Shove the flutes down your pants and use a low voice when you greet the air hostesses.

[sturob]

Speaking of the headjoint and temperature fluctuations (excellent points), for what it's worth, I've made it my practice to warm the outside of the headjoint (particularly lined ones) before I start playing. I just hold the headjoint under my arm for a while, and it warms the headjoint nicely. I guess my hope is that if I warm the timber, it won't be quite so shocked by (more rapid) rise of the metal lining once I start breathing into the thing.

No idea if it helps.

Stuart

[missa]

in 2 weeks i will be taking my two flutes from bc (west coast of canada, at the moment about 10C) to winnipeg, manitoba (around -30C). i'll be using them for 2-3 shows a day for 9 days. i've heard both sides of this story, and i'm not too sure what i should do to protect my flutes. is there something special i should be doing to keep them safe?

I'd keep them well wrapped up, missa, especially when travelling. Let them get used to the temperature change slowly (ie don't be in a rush to assemble and play them if you've been obliged to stand out in the cold with them). If you're flying, take them in the cabin with you as a carry-on. Keep yourself well wrapped up too, hopefully you'll not be playing them outdoors!

thanks!.... i always take my flutes in the cabin with me, usually this isn't a problem...my bodhran is a bit harder to bring in the cabin though ...should i keep the flutes wrapped up in a plastic bag with a damp sopnge in it, as i've heard?

[missa]

Garry is right. Shove the flutes down your pants and use a low voice when you greet the air hostesses.

andrew, i'm sure that would go over well. especially with my band mates ....

[chas]

Speaking of the headjoint and temperature fluctuations (excellent points), for what it's worth, I've made it my practice to warm the outside of the headjoint (particularly lined ones) before I start playing. I just hold the headjoint under my arm for a while, and it warms the headjoint nicely. I guess my hope is that if I warm the timber, it won't be quite so shocked by (more rapid) rise of the metal lining once I start breathing into the thing.

No idea if it helps.

I also do that when I think of it. It sure helps hot having to swab the head out after five minutes of playing.