Key-signature confusion (long and technical)

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:53 pm

On 2002-04-11 11:52, ndjr wrote:
... I haven't had much trouble understanding what a mode is, but I'm not always able to figure out the key and mode of a tune. Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes not. What specifically does one look for in determining the mode of a tune?

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Thu Apr 11, 2002 10:43 pm

On 2002-04-11 17:53, Bloomfield wrote:

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

Thanks, Bloomfield. That is the short version of what I got from an article in Fintan Vallely's book. For some reason it just seemed to me a bit too simple, and I wanted to hear someone else say it.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 3:11 am

On 2002-04-11 17:53, Bloomfield wrote:
On 2002-04-11 11:52, ndjr wrote:
... I haven't had much trouble understanding what a mode is, but I'm not always able to figure out the key and mode of a tune. Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes not. What specifically does one look for in determining the mode of a tune?

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

The last note will almost always give you the keynote but that alone doesn't tell you the mode. If the last note is A, the scale (mode) will probably be A X in Irish music where X could be major (Ionian), minor (Dorian or Aeolian) or Mixolydian. So you have to know the mode by looking at the key signature. If you are not looking at music you would have to know the notes of the scale of the tune to see which mode it is.

Steve

[ This Message was edited by: SteveK on 2002-04-12 09:43 ]

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 6:44 am

The last note, Bloomfield? It's wise not to try to formulate rules about Irish traditional music, or to try to make it fit what works for other traditions.

SteveK is careful to say the last note "almost always" gives you the key note, but actually problem cases are quite numerous.

Take the jig "Down the back lane" - it seems to be in D-mixolydian. Until you get to the last note, which is a very emphatic G. And it is not alone.

(BTW if I'm not mistaken the notorious Appalachian (?) tune "Over the waterfall" exhibits the same behaviour.)

Another couple of weirdos for you, off the top of the head. "The Cloon" (Humours of Toomagh) and "Sailing into Walpole's Marsh". If you took the last note as a guide, you'd say The Cloon was in a D mode. Now have a look at the rest of the tune and start scratching your head.

Walpole's Marsh ends on A in the first part, D in the second, but just wanders all over the place all through.

And what about "The Bank of Ireland" and "Rakish Paddy"?

Tomas O Cannain discusses such "tunes with complex tonalities" in his book Traditional Music in Ireland. He ends up proposing a system whereby you assign weights to various notes in the tune depending on the position, function and frequency in order to determine the tonality.

All very interesting. I don't bother my head too much about all this. I suppose if I were a guitarist I'd have to, though!

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-04-12 08:46 ]

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:49 am

On 2002-04-12 08:44, StevieJ wrote:
The last note, Bloomfield? It's wise not to try to formulate rules about Irish traditional music, or to try to make it fit what works for other traditions.

I left myself open to that, of course. Everything you say is true. The last-note rule-of-thumb probably only works for 70%-80% of the tunes.

I haven't gone around analysing tonality that much, but if someone asks me what key is this-or-that in, I start with my short answer: I run through the scale (sharps, flats, naturals) and I look at the last note. Sometimes it doesn't work and I'm stumped. At which point I give up because I don't know the long answer, either.

So thanks for adding all the disclaimers that I recklessly omitted.

But I don't quite know where that "other traditions" jibe comes from. If you are accusing me of being classically trained, my second will see you promptly to fix a time. Your choice of weapons. And incidentally, in classical music "the last note" is only the short answer, too, and quite inadequate to comprehend the tonality of certain Schubert pieces. Not to mention Wagner, Bruckner, or Hindemith, of course.

SteveK · Post by **SteveK** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:50 am

Another quite common tune that is ambigous is The Blarney Pilgrim. It might appear to be in D mix since it contains C natural and ends on D, at least the last part ends on D. However I think it is best treated as if it were in G. As Stevie J says it really doesn't make any difference if your playing the melody but fitting chords to it might requre more precise knowledge of the mode.

The first part of Over the Waterfall seems to actually change key from D to G. I'm not really sure. But the G note and chord at the end of it seems to leave you hanging until it is resolved. The tune is clearly in D for the most part though.

Steve

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:01 am

On 2002-04-12 09:50, SteveK wrote:

The first part of Over the Waterfall seems to actually change key from D to G. I'm not really sure. But the G note and chord at the end of it seems to leave you hanging until it is resolved. The tune is clearly in D for the most part though.

Steve

That bit of modulation at the end of the first part is IMHO the only interesting thing about that tune. A bit of surge there in the waterfall and a sense of being lifted off your feet and off solid tonality.

The D in the third part of the B Pilgrim has always struck me as being an imitation of the drones on the pipes (which is why I like playing ADD BDD | ADD etc... rather than A2D B2D | A2D etc...).

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:20 am

The Blarney Pig as some call it is an interesting case indeed. The passing C-naturals in the first and third parts are the only thing stopping it from being a pure pentatonic tune.

(I am slightly obsessed with spotting odd or extraneous notes like this and seeing whether the tune improves if you expunge them or substitute something else. Very often it does. (I'm gearing up for a long essay on this somewhere down the road. (Bet you can't wait.)))

In my fiddle-playing days I liked to use two-note chords at the ends of tunes. You might think The Blarney Pig is really in "G", but... on the fiddle by far the most pleasing effect comes from ending the tune with a low A on the G-string to harmonize with the final D. It gives a wonderful open, fresh, alive feeling. Play a G instead and it sounds flat, dull and boring.

I really am glad I play melody.

PS Bloomfield: my choice of weapons? A sharpened cello spike.

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 8:45 am

On 2002-04-12 10:20, StevieJ wrote:

I really am glad I play melody.

I have read that players of rhythm or background instruments, such as guitarists, bouzoukers, and sometimes harpists, should concern themselves with modes, but what about someone who plays what is generally considered a melody instrument ( whistle ) but wants to learn to play harmony on the fly with it?

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:01 am

On 2002-04-12 10:45, ndjr wrote:
What about someone who plays what is generally considered a melody instrument ( whistle ) but wants to learn to play harmony on the fly with it?

Well you've stumped me there Neil. The more I think about the question the less I can say about it!

Seriously, though, most guitarists and bouzouki players I know who produce an accompaniment that works well don't (as far as I can tell) actually go in for theory very much.

Most of them use open tuning, and most of them develop an instinct for what chords work. In other words they do it by ear and experience.

Perhaps the same approach to harmony would work best. Bear in mind that the things that work in other kinds of music (thirds and fifths, sometimes fourths and sixths, avoid repeated parallel fifths) will work in this music too, but use your ear above all.

If you prefer a more technical approach, I'm quite sure it's all covered in what's-the-name-of-that-book-you-always-recommend Lee?

(And yes Peter, I agree. Harmony has no historical place... etc. etc. etc.)

Blackbird · Post by **Blackbird** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:17 am

I think we should remember that music theory is something that follows music, it doesnt precede it. It can explain what is happening but is only marginally useful for expounding on what should happen. For me, although I find notation very useful for learning a basic tune, harmony is completely an ear thing. If I can hear the tune, I can hear the harmony, no matter what mode it is in. The same goes for guitar players, they usually don't give a thought to what mode a tune is in, but try the the various chord patterns they are familiar with until they find what works. Any guitar player who is familiar with traditional music can find the chord pattern after one or two hearings of a tune.

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:49 am

On 2002-04-12 12:01, StevieJ wrote:

Well you've stumped me there Neil. The more I think about the question the less I can say about it!

Well, many thanks both to you and to Blackbird for having a go!

In reading up on Celtic ( term used as shorthand ) music I've run into discussions of modes, most particularly with respect to the book on playing guitar back-up. I've also heard participants at sessions bandy mode designations about, and have therefore wondered what the practical usefulness of the concept was to me, a whistler. The answer seems to be "not a great deal."

Thanks again.

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 11:56 am

Just wanted to add a couple things to the discussion.

First, the book Steve made allusion to is Celtic Back-up for the Instrumentalist by Chris Smith. A quick search of the board should generate a mini-review and additional information on the book.

Second, I agree that modes and music theory is simply a way to understand whats happening in the music. The music drives the theory; the theory doesn't determine the music. However, I find knowing more about modes helps me do what is most important in Irish Music. It helps me listen better. Knowing a little about mode, I can now hear more often when a mode changes in a tune. I can more easily hear the ornaments that fit the feel of the tune. By example, G major and E-minor tunes have the same notes in their scales but have a decidedly different feel. Knowing about modes help me hear the difference.

Third, as an adjunct, from time to time I've heard other melody players complain about whistlers adding too much ornamentation. It seems that when the ornament is more compatible with the mode or feel of the tune. It is almost un-noticed, or at least not noticed as an "ornament". Knowing the modes can help me pick more appropriate ornaments.

Fourth, when I play guitar in an Irish session, my primary responsibility is to provide support for the rhythm of the tune. Playing an exact series chords is not as important as playing chords that support and don't interfer with the melody of the tune. Knowing the mode of the tune can help your guitarist or other accompaniest (including piano) quickly work out a set of chords that work. As mentioned above most accompanists will figure it out by the second or third time through the tune by listening for the feel. However, the first time you sit down with a piano player that plays your favorite E-dorian tune in G-major, you'll wish you had mentioned to him what mode/key you prefer.

Finally, a lot of Irish tunes change mode in the tune. Here the Sunset Reel and the Irish Beggarman come to mind as examples. That change is often what makes the tune a memorable tune. Miss the change, and you miss the tune; so, catching the change can be done by either hearing how the change feels or by recognizing the change in modes.

I guess I just wanted to add that knowing modes is helpfull for all the above reasons and that you can accomplish the same benifits by listening to what the music is doing, without knowing the modes. Modes seem to help the mind get around what your ear and heart hear.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 1:00 pm

Knowing the modes is also great for picking up chicks.

Uh, Baby, why don't we head over to my place so I can show you my Mixolydian Mode...?