WTT-- D whistle with C added?

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:17 am

I just had a customer ask if I could use the body tube of one of my C whistles, but position the fingerholes up in their normal D whistle position, and add a 7th pinky hole for the C natural. My inclination was to tell him no, that the extra body tube below the C hole would throw the D scale off but I'm not totally sure about that. Considering the amount of time and labor required to make a C tube, it's not something I really want to experiment with...
I would want to keep my same D fingerhole sizes and spacing, otherwise a considerable amount of retooling would be necessary.
What he wants is basically a D whistle, with a C tacked on at the bottom. Nice idea if it would work...
Any insight into this would be welcomed.

vomitbunny · Post by **vomitbunny** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:09 am

You mean like on a silktone plus? I have one with a seventh hole. It's a little bit of a stretch for the pinky, but one could get used to it easily enough. It's a fairly good idea really. Besides the c nat, it gives you the extra note at the bottom, and gives you a better cross fingered f nat as well. I pulled it out the other night and a fiddle player thought I was pulling out a c whistle to play. Yeah, it's just a tad longer.
Here's a pic of the delrin model. Looks like it can rotate the pinky hole, which would be good. I have the alloy.
http://www.thewhistleshop.com/catalog/w ... ne/ace.htm

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:15 am

Hi Paul,

Colin Goldie also makes such a contraption.

He also makes what he calls a modal whistle which is a D with an extra pinky-driven bottem C and an F-nat thumb hole.

He could probably help you out with some techno-gibberish.

Doc

raindog1970 · Post by **raindog1970** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:29 am

Yes, it would work just fine... the only drawback is that pinkie holes can be a little tricky to use when playing.
Paul Hayward does exactly this with his 'D-Plus' whistles, and he offsets the pinkie hole to make it easier to cover.
He even makes the pinkie hole adjustable on his 'Ace' models, which is no doubt the best way to do it.
Other than being a little tricky to play, a whistle like this would be very useful.
Vommie and Doc are also right about Colin Goldie's 'Modal' whistles of the same design, but with the addition of an F thumbhole.
I'd suggest creating a whistle with a C pinkie hole and a C thumb hole... haven't seen one of those yet!

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:05 am

What about a C# bottom hole it would be useful for people who want to play with Galician Pipers (with D sets) because it should be done.

Casey Burns did it on a Keyed Flute with a key C# on the Bottom.

vomitbunny · Post by **vomitbunny** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:34 am

........vomit bunny thinks about pieces of whistle tube, super glue, and a drill.........

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:10 pm

Moments after I posted the original message, Brigitte e-mailed me and told me that Colin does this regularly. then Colin chimed in with some advice. Armed with that information, I did some experimenting. I took a Delrin prototype C whistle, taped up the fingerholes, and re-drilled it on the other side with the 7 holes we've been discussing. It sounds pretty in tune, although the sound is weak (probably due to the fact that those first holes are covered with flexible tape, not Delrin). I will definitely try making a real one in my next batch.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:18 pm

Paul, you may be able to use an adaptation of the technique I have developed for correcting the sharp bell note on Waltons Mellow D tubes. In case you don't recall the information, I'll quote the passage here:

I've been preparing a batch of tweaked Waltons Mellow D's (actually, these would more properly be called Mellow Dogs, since I've replaced the Waltons whistlehead with a tweaked Feadog C head).

These tubes, even more clearly than the Generation D tubes I've checked, seem to be set up for something close to just intonation. However, to discover this you first have to adjust the horribly sharp bell note. I've found that increasing the length of the Mellow D tube by about .210 inches is about right.

In case you're interested, I do this by hitching the tubes, in batches of 10 at a time, one end to the trailer hitch on my pickup truck and the other to a big stump, and stretching them the correct amount. I connect the tubes end to end using duct tape. I've been able to calibrate this procedure by determining the exact engine RPM's and number of seconds I need to maintain while pulling to get exactly .210 inches of increased tube length consistently.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:07 pm

I suggest a tapered foot joint similar to an Irish flute added to a "D" body. It would not effect your present design measurements and you could add a simple keywork. Remember, bore/length ratios can be as high as 40/1. ( A Tabour Pipe is one example.)

The tapered inner diameter will also move the c tonehole closer to the pinkie's reach, if keywork is not used. Reducing the outside diameter at the lower end on the lathe would facilitate a slide/joint for the extention/joint.

Hope this helps.
Thomas Hastay.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:39 pm

Thomas-Hastay wrote:I suggest a tapered foot joint similar to an Irish flute added to a "D" body. It would not effect your present design measurements and you could add a simple keywork. Remember, bore/length ratios can be as high as 40/1. ( A Tabour Pipe is one example.)

The tapered inner diameter will also move the c tonehole closer to the pinkie's reach, if keywork is not used. Reducing the outside diameter at the lower end on the lathe would facilitate a slide/joint for the extention/joint.

Hope this helps.
Thomas Hastay.

Do you feel this would be superior to the duct tape/pickup truck stretching procedure? (You can do several at once ... )

Best wishes,
Jerry

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:11 pm

I've made whistles with the C extension for some time. It does change the spacing somewhat.
It also keeps that bottom end D from being stronger than the other bottom end notes. However, now you have a strong bottom end C.

For my special modes whistles , like Ahava Rabba and Roma Scales, the extra note is almost mandatory. It makes the other toneholes fit your hands better and a great number of songs in the type of music played with those whistles descend below the tonic note.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:47 am

Jerry Freeman wrote:Paul, you may be able to use an adaptation of the technique I have developed for correcting the sharp bell note on Waltons Mellow D tubes. In case you don't recall the information, I'll quote the passage here:

In case you're interested, I do this by hitching the tubes, in batches of 10 at a time, one end to the trailer hitch on my pickup truck and the other to a big stump, and stretching them the correct amount. I connect the tubes end to end using duct tape. I've been able to calibrate this procedure by determining the exact engine RPM's and number of seconds I need to maintain while pulling to get exactly .210 inches of increased tube length consistently.

Best wishes,
Jerry[/quote]

I don't think I can get wood to stretch that much... maybe I can make a D whistle from a tree branch that's still growing right on the tree, and then wait until it grows to the proper pitch...

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:58 am

brewerpaul wrote:
Jerry Freeman wrote:Paul, you may be able to use an adaptation of the technique I have developed for correcting the sharp bell note on Waltons Mellow D tubes. In case you don't recall the information, I'll quote the passage here:

In case you're interested, I do this by hitching the tubes, in batches of 10 at a time, one end to the trailer hitch on my pickup truck and the other to a big stump, and stretching them the correct amount. I connect the tubes end to end using duct tape. I've been able to calibrate this procedure by determining the exact engine RPM's and number of seconds I need to maintain while pulling to get exactly .210 inches of increased tube length consistently.

Best wishes,
Jerry
I don't think I can get wood to stretch that much...

Have you tried?

Best wishes,
Jerry

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:02 am

A while back, I had asked if someone could make a D whistle with fingering much like an uilleann pipe chanter. ie: an extra hole for D# and a back D hole. I was shot down by some who caimed they weren't needed, but others did see the value in having a whislte that mantained the same basic fingering quirks as a chanter (particularly back D for me!)

At any rate, a lot has been done with experimentation and extra holes. Best of luck Paul, whatever you are able to come up with.

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:19 am

Many of the Irish Flutes have open holes for the C/C# that keep the D note at a good balance. The holes are usually not reachable by the fingers and when a flute is purchased with keys, these holes get the (Normally Open) keys put over them