Not OT, Irish Music and political opinions.

[michael_coleman]

But then if you think about it, where are the good towns for Irish music? San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Boston; all are leftist towns. You don't here about Mobile, Alabama being a hotbed of Irish music.

Its probably because they are bigger cities, thus lending themselves to a greater pool to draw from and thus having a greater occurance of good musicians in any genre...

[anniemcu]

Been drinking Pepsi tonight so excuse me.

I was thinking (<-mistake) tonight that all of the good itm musicians I've met and read about have been more of the liberal varietys. I can't think of one politically conservative itm player (that I've met in real life, on the web or that I've read about) who was a master of his/her particular instrument. Definatly not going to name names here cause that would be all bad but I was wondering if it's something about irish music that conservatives aren't good at or if being conservative is being unirish? Maybe it's because I tend to associate with leftleaners or that I live in California so the great players in the pubs that I meet are from California and that's why I haven't come across great politically conservative itm musicians. But then if you think about it, where are the good towns for Irish music? San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Boston; all are leftist towns. You don't here about Mobile, Alabama being a hotbed of Irish music.

Now I'm not meaning this to be a jab at conservatives, (okay maybe a little bit) but seriously is this a true phenomina? Could it be that Conservatives can't accept that they make mistakes and that they can't admit that they are doing something incorrectly, just like they can't in real life? And therefore they cannot fix their problems? I do not know, I'm just throwing this out there.

Pardon my Pepsi

Honestly, I think that people who tend to look at the world as more than their own little (or not so little) country tend to end up leaning left of center... it's part of realizing you are not so different, nor so removed from your fellows around the world. It's hard to play good traditional music in or from another country and not notice that they are real people too.

[Azalin]

Jack, are you gonna start drinking alcohol when you'll be over 21?

[anniemcu]

And then they turn on one of their own when he dares make a film like "The Passion of Christ".

I remember laughing at the hypocrisy of the Hollyweird left when they were criticizing 'The Passion' and Mel Gibson, and saying "It's too violent."

You know what was playing in theaters at the same time?

"Kill Bill 2". (I assume they named it that because it had twice the senseless killing).

That was a pretty petty little bit of hypocracy, wasn't it.

I think it is interesting that movies that depict actual events in the manner in which they likely actually happened (i.e. The Passion, Braveheart, etc., not meaning the story as presented is absolutely accurate, but the depiction of the very real level of the violence that probably did accompany it), are called on the carpet for the level of violence, which is historically accurate, but the fiction we present, with the rude, crude, lewd, and downright uglyness is simply accepted as is, and *celebrated* with merchandise sales that defy logic ... pretty ironic, IMHO.

[MurphyStout]

Hehe, I'm am 21 now and the answer is no. For many reasons amoung which, if I was drunk you'd never get me to shut up and furthermore my mouth (without restraint) would say exactly what it wants and I'd no doubt end up beating alot of innocent people up by getting beligerant. Plus I have never had a drink in my life and I see no point in starting now.

[energy]

All true conservatives play bluegrass.

But in seriousness, I think your observation does generally hold true Jack, and I think you already alluded to the reason. Irish music breeds in the population centers, and it's only possible to become really good at it in the context of a musical community. Since the population centers are overwhelmingly liberal, it's no surprise that the musicians born and raised in them are liberal as well. So, I think it's purely coincidental that good Irish musicians are usually liberal.

A few random notes not so relevant to the conversation. Neo-trad is cooler than bluegrass. Alan Keyes is a true conservative, but he's too combative to be elected. I'm a conservative (or should I say libertarian?) and I care about people (!). And finally, I wonder if anyone can tell me what Tyler Duncan's political persuasion is? This is the problem with forum discussions, too many posts to possibly respond to everything I'd like to...

[IRTradRU?]

Isn't Doolin considered the music capital of the world?
What's their population? It must be pretty small, isn't it?

[Azalin]

Isn't Doolin considered the music capital of the world?
What's their population? It must be pretty small, isn't it?

Doolin is very small. I think it's more about the history of Doolin than the actual Doolin. There's lotsa music over there, but there's "only" three pubs and they're always so packed you can't really hear the music unless it's miked (or if you go during off season, but then only one pub has music every night). As far as I know, Ennis and Miltown Malbay are the greatest spots for ITM in Clare.

[lixnaw]

Isn't Doolin considered the music capital of the world?
What's their population? It must be pretty small, isn't it?

there's only two Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Kerry!!
and in that mighty Kingdom lies the Capital of the world's music: DINGLE

[Walden]

there's only two Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Kerry!!

Not back to the whole Red States/ Blue States thing again!

[Cayden]

Isn't Doolin considered the music capital of the world?
?

That's how they like to advertise it anyway. Don't believe everything you read. :roll:

[lixnaw]

there's only two Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Kerry!!

Not back to the whole Red States/ Blue States thing again!

blasshht!! they're all inferior, to that far more superior and gorgeous city, called "DINGLE TOWN"

[Lorenzo]

Isn't Doolin considered the music capital of the world?
What's their population? It must be pretty small, isn't it?

It's not as big as the Rose City, Dude.

[Wombat]

Sorry to get serious again folks but this deserves a sincere reply.

The Americans I have met that consider themselves as "Liberals" would be deemed to be center right in Scotland.

You got it in one David. This would be true throughout Britain and Europe and in Australia and New Zealand.

With all due respect, I think you are trying to impose the realities of one country upon the realities of another, in that liberal and conservative are relative terms. What constitutes a conservative in Canadian politics is very different from what constitutes one in the People's Republic of China. The difference lies not in degree but in the substance being conserved, so to speak.

Well firstly, I'm not trying to impose anything, certainly not social reality. That's not something I, or you, could do, even if we wanted to. If I were trying to impose something it would be a more consistent and less misleading use of language in the interests of better communication. To that end, I made a recommendation which I'll presently defend, not an imposition.

First, I was trying to help David out. He admits to having difficulty understanding Americans when they use terms that look familiar to all Westerners but seem at first to we outsiders to be employed in unintelligible ways. Obviously, if I'm to explain anything to him, I have to use those terms in the senses non-Americans attach to them, and then explain how Americans deviate from those senses. And the terminology is not being used in the special sense of 'one country.' I was using terms as they were used in all Western countries other than the US. That doesn't make the deviant usage wrong. Americans are free to use political terminology as they please, just as everyone else is. If everyone somewhere want to call cats dogs and dogs cats that's their call. What is interesting is whether the deviant usage is misleading and intentionally or unintentionally deceptive. That is a question Americans should be asking themselves without the need for others to prompt them. The Australian Liberal Party is really a conservative party in disguise. That is plain dishonest. It was and remains a misuse of language intended to deceive. Anybody is free to make that obvious observation; you don't have to be Australian or know anything about the political reality here to make it.

Second, I don't think Americans misuse or deviate in meaning on terms like 'conservative', 'liberal' or 'socialist'. It's the eccentric use of the terms 'left' and 'right' that I find misleading. The reason I find it misleading is that in lumping together socialists and liberals you blur a distinction which is highly important in terms of social policy. Socialists and liberals have no more in common with each other than each have with conservatives. So what reputable reason could there be to pretend otherwise? I won't speculate on how this came about but my remarks about distorting statistics were largely tongue in cheek, even though I think this is an inevitable consequence.

In its primary use, I agree that 'conservative' is a relative term, primarily in content rather than degree. I think 'liberal' is too, only less so. 'Socialist', I think, doesn't really shift in content much from place to place. This would make for a very confusing situation indeed if these terms were used in politics in their primary senses, but I think they aren't used in any such subtly nuanced way in crude political debate. Let me illustrate with 'conservative'. This means in it's primary sense (very roughly) 'distrustful of and opposed to significant social change.' That can be taken to tacitly mean HERE and NOW so there is a double relativity to place and time. Now, when American liberals and conservatives shout at each other, that is clearly not what they mean by 'conservative.' Rather, there is a family of views on social issues that they mean which are shared, in very large part, by conservatives throughout the Western world. There are small differences, but no more than between different American conservatives. Furthermore, many of those views call for change, not for inaction. Abortion would be an obvious example. In the ordinary senses of these terms, the anti-abortion lobby in the US is reactionary, not conservative.

So it is with politics. You are judging conservative/liberal based on its relation to socialism, but the history of socialism in the United States is rather different from that in the countries of the EU and the Commonwealth, that you are comparing (though the USA is certainly not without social welfare programs, many of which enjoy broad public support across party lines, and likewise there are many services owned or controlled by the government), so that to judge American Conservative or Liberal positions based on its relation to Socialism, compared to that of countries with very different histories of socialism, would require something more than to say it is misdefined liberalism.

Since I think we were talking at cross purposes to some extent, I think I've covered for these comments in what I've already said, but I quote them to make it easier for someone who might want to check. I wasn't comparing any popular American position with socialism; I was simply illustrating how one could get distorted statistics, from a socialist perspective, about American bias from blurring the distinction between liberals and conservatives. Believe me, I've seen it done, and I no more condone it than I condone the blurring of the distinction between socialist and liberal. I realise that socialism isn't an electorally viable position in the US but that is no excuse for pushing it off the left edge of the spectrum. It is a possible position, even if hardly anyone would currently endorse it, and the left/right spectrum needs to honour this.

[BrassBlower]

All true conservatives play bluegrass.

***looking through CD rack in search of the "O Brother" soundtrack***

Doesn't this make "Down the Old Plank Road" a political contradiction?

Wasn't there a time when women were not allowed to play bluegrass?

So, I wonder if, in my bluegrass-friendly music community, I would be dismissed as a Pinko if I were to be caught bowing more than two notes in a single stroke or using the frog half of the bow? I'm probably in danger as it is just for playing the whistle!