A and B rolls

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:43 pm

Wombat wrote:While there's a place, an important one, for playing things slowly, there's also a place for playing things that are technically beyond you in just the way described. Of course, I don't just mean practice things you can't yet play. All learning involves that. What I mean is practice things a couple of degrees of difficulty harder than what you can comfortably play.

I think when we play tunes we are having trouble with on low D or G and tehn go back to playing them on high D we are doing something like this. it can really help dexterity and rhythm. Also there's a limited role for playing faster than you can comfortably manage occasionally, but I suspect a lot of people will disagree about that. This sort of exercise should only be indulged in for relatively brief periods I think.

I agree with this. Whenever I've been asked to play a tune for a gig, and I didn't know it well, I tend to push myself a little with it during practice the week before. That way, when I play it slower at the gig, it's easier.

chas · Post by **chas** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:25 pm

FJohnSharp wrote:I was agreeing and reinforcing wombat's statement, not contradicting, as it seems to appear.

I'll write clearer-er in the future.

I'll try to be a little more open to interpretation, too.

As for the original posting and what's been posted since, I agree that it's absolutely essential to find a piece you like and want to practice in order to learn any new techniques. When I was trying to learn cuts, taps, and rolls, I used to practice them. It went absolutely nowhere. Then I started practicing Banish Misfortune (obvious E and G rolls) and Morrison's jig (obvious cuts all over the place). I learned to do pretty tight rolls on E, F, and G from that. For crans, The maid at the spinning wheel (also has B rolls) and The choice wife. I did pick up A rolls okay on the flute, can't remember for the life of me what tune it was, although Deirdre Havlin's version of King George IV from Deanta's second album is a great one for those. I still haven't gotten A rolls on the whistle, nor B rolls on the whistle or very tightly on the flute. The second tune in the first set on Mairead and Frankie's second album is a great tune for B rolls, too.

to clarify on building speed, I'm no great fan of the "let's play it as fast as we can with as many ornaments as possible" school of playing. I've found that most of my favorite sets by many different artists are done at, well, not exactly a leisurely tempo, but what I'd refer to as a tasteful tempo. To me, slowed down, there's an emphasis on the tune; sped up somewhat, the emphasis tends to be on the rhythm, but sped up too much, the emphasis seems to be on the player. There have been a few players I initially liked; when I heard their music, I'd say "What a great player." Just as in life, though, after the falling love phase, there must be a love phase. There has to be a conversion from "what a great player" to, "what a beautiful tune." Some players just seem to be into playing tunes so fast that nobody (except, pardon the expression, Michael Flatley) could possibly dance to them. For me it ceases to be musical.

Also, there are many tunes that sound good at a wide range of tempos. I think it's a good idea to learn techniques from tunes that sound good slowed down. Morrison's is a good example, as is Kid on the Mountain, which has rolls, short rolls, and all sorts of goodies. It was one of the first tunes my flute teacher introduced me to. I can play it along with the Bothies now, but when left to my own devices, tend to play it at probably 2/3 or 3/4 their tempo.

Sorry for the ramble. I do think this is a very important topic, though, and what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Most of us have the same goal in the end, though.

[/i]

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:12 pm

Someone (it might have been Bloomie's stand-in Gunther) gave me a helpful hint on A rolls at the Northeast whistle gathering this summer. For me the toughest part of the roll to get crisp and clean is the last tap on G-- it always comes out sounding like a separate note instead of a little blip on the A. Gunther suggested that instead of trying to tap with my ring finger on the G, tap with my pinky-- not necessarily on a hole, just wherever the pinky happens to be. In the process of tapping the pinky, the ring finger comes down nice and fast and bounces right back off that g hole nice as you please.
If a tune isn't too fast, I'll sometimes sneak the index finger of my bottom hand up for A rolls to play that last tap. If I keep the middle and ring fingers of the bottom hand where they belong, the index finger finds it's way home after the roll easily.

seisflutes · Post by **seisflutes** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:22 pm

I didn't really master A and B rolls until last February,when I started learning the uilleann pipes.I think I had a subconcious fear of droping the flute or whistle,but the chanter sits so securely on my knee that I just did the rolls easily,and then that transfered to the flute/whistle.
-Kelly

izzarina · Post by **izzarina** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:59 pm

Wombat wrote:I think that to get the rhythm of jigs and reels you need to be able to play fragments of them at somewhere near geezer speed if not at session speed.

I'm beginning to think that I don't have any other speed than geezer speed :roll:

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:01 am

izzarina wrote:
Wombat wrote:I think that to get the rhythm of jigs and reels you need to be able to play fragments of them at somewhere near geezer speed if not at session speed.
I'm beginning to think that I don't have any other speed than geezer speed :roll:

I agree with Chas, and I think a lot of others here, that geezer speed is plenty fast enough. A good steady lilting rhythm and minimal ornamentation that shows off the melody nicely beats a race to see who can finish first and cram in everything on the way any day.

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:33 am

Bloomfield wrote:I disagree with Wombat, but I know nothing about guitar licks. But nothing.

Take a book out of how Highland pipers learn their insanely complicated and precise ornamentation: They slow down to super sloooooooow motion and exaggerate the finger movements (moving the fingers far off the chanter).

On the whistle, slow down (think slow motion, not slow musical speed), then move the fingers in a deliberate and exaggerated way. Most importantly keep in time. That is cruicial. Count eight notes if it helps. Get the fingers used to the clean and rhythmical succession of the movements you need for your roll. You will feel when it settles into your fingers (and it won't take that long). At that point you can speed up a little, but resist the temptation to speed up too much. Discipline yourself not to play at any speed where you cannot keep the rhythm clean and steady.

Im my experience it takes about a year of 10 min a day to get rolls under your belt. After that the A and the B rolls will continue to be the iffy ones. As a professional ITM flute player said to me once when I complained about having to work on my A rolls: "you'll be doing it for the rest of your life; we all have to."

Perhaps we disagree, but, if so, not on the basis of anything you say here I think. Well perhaps the idea that playing at normal speed some of the time during the learning process is a point of disagreement.

If all there were to learning rolls was to play them slowly the way you describe, complete with exaggerated finger movements, and then gradually speed up, all the while maintaining steady rhythm, then the following experiment should work. Take a piece you can play well at normal speed, say a reel just to be concrete about it. Record it at that speed. Next slow it down as much as you possibly can and play it the way you recommend, complete with exaggerated finger movements and record it at that speed. Now speed up the recording until you reach the tempo you recorded the first version. If playing slowly where all that there were to learning rolls, the two versions should be nearly identical. This is obviously an empirical matter by I predict they wouldn't be. First, I don't think the rolls would sound quite right; this would have something to do with the duration of the blips and something to do with the exaggerations. Second, I doubt that what you'd hear would be a good reel rhythm. If I'm right about this, then playing rolls up to speed and incorporated in dance tunes involves something other than the start-slow-and-speed-up method.

I'd be really interested to hear the results if someone with the technique and the equipment were actually to try this experiment. Of course, even if it did work for an experienced player, it wouldn't disprove my theory for beginners because it might be possible for an experienced player to maintain a good reel rhythm at half tempo or slower but not possible for a beginner or intermediate player.

Let me explain why I predict as I do by going back to rock guitar. Chuck Berry licks wouldn't come out right played slowly because a rock song played very slowly becomes a slow blues and the temptation to phrase as though you were playing a slow blues would be irresistable. So, sped up, you wouldn't have rock and roll, you'd have something that sounded exactly like what it was: a slow blues sped up. Also the licks would sound wrong. Integral to rock phrasing on guitar is sustain. You lose that when you slow down and try to compensate in other ways. (Something like this happens on other instruments.) That is not a good way to learn good rhythm although, when you can play the licks roughly at or near speed, it is a good way to finesse them in certain ways.

So there is a role for playing slowly and an important one. In practice, I suspect that when first learning rolls at super-slow pace, people still practice playing unornamented dance tunes at or near speed to develop good dance rhythms.

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:12 am

It seems to me you need to learn tunes playing them near if not at proper tempo, so you get the feel of the rhythm correct. And you need to learn the techniques of playing ornaments slowly, so that you can make your fingers move correctly.

I've been starting to suspect there is too much emphasis on learning to play ornaments, and not enough emphasis on learning to play with the proper swing and feel....

burnsbyrne · Post by **burnsbyrne** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:25 am

brewerpaul wrote:Someone (it might have been Bloomie's stand-in Gunther) gave me a helpful hint on A rolls at the Northeast whistle gathering this summer. For me the toughest part of the roll to get crisp and clean is the last tap on G-- it always comes out sounding like a separate note instead of a little blip on the A. Gunther suggested that instead of trying to tap with my ring finger on the G, tap with my pinky-- not necessarily on a hole, just wherever the pinky happens to be. In the process of tapping the pinky, the ring finger comes down nice and fast and bounces right back off that g hole nice as you please.
If a tune isn't too fast, I'll sometimes sneak the index finger of my bottom hand up for A rolls to play that last tap. If I keep the middle and ring fingers of the bottom hand where they belong, the index finger finds it's way home after the roll easily.

This is an important lesson that I learned as a classical guitar player. The ring finger and little finger share a tendon sheath on their way past the wrist toward their respective muscles in the fore arm. This makes it very difficult, and impossible for some people, to move these two fingers independently. When playing the guitar with the fingers ( i.e., not with a pick) the player has to let the little finger "tag along" with the ring finger. Trying to keep the little finger still causes muscle tension to increase and impairs the movement of the ring finger. It stands to reason that the same principle would apply when playing whistle or flute. The hands need to be relaxed. Any excess tension will reduce the speed and accuracy of the fingers.
Mike

dubhlinn · Post by **dubhlinn** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:47 am

colomon wrote:I've been starting to suspect there is too much emphasis on learning to play ornaments, and not enough emphasis on learning to play with the proper swing and feel....

You're gettin' the hang of it now colomon .

The trick is to develop a relaxed swinging rhythm and once you've got that flowing freely the ornamentation kinda drops into place of its own free will.
Each tune has its own unique character and personality,in a manner of speaking. When you get to know the tune as a living breathing entity then the playing becomes effortless and you become a channel through which this personality speaks.

Now I know that this may sound very new - agey dippy hippy but I've been doing this for thirty three years now and this is the best way I can think of to describe the process of playing this music has it is meant to be played.

Slan,
D.

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:13 am

[quote="colomonI've been starting to suspect there is too much emphasis on learning to play ornaments, and not enough emphasis on learning to play with the proper swing and feel....[/quote]

Listen to some of the old timers-- many of them didn't use much ornamentation at all, but they were rhythmic as all getout. This stuff IS dance music after all, and a dancer can only dance just so fast...

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:47 am

Weirdly enough, I got the message listening to old 1970s recordings of the band Ryan's Fancy. It seems like nearly every LP of theirs has at least one whistle solo (played by Dennis Ryan, I believe), and in all of that music, I don't think I've ever heard him play a roll. It's not brilliant stuff, but the music sounds nice. I know I've done a lot of playing that was less musical, even though (and maybe partially because!) it was full of rolls.

Listening to other old timers, I'm never sure if I'm just not hearing some of the ornaments -- rolls I can always hear, but other stuff can be more subtle. But I know, for instance, Peter Horan plays a eighth followed by a quarter (I assume split by a cut) in a lot of places where I would have done a roll, and dang, I like the way he sounds doing that.

This is part of the reason why I've mostly given up on crans. They're a nice special effect, but I don't think I've ever heard an old timer play one...

QRS · Post by **QRS** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:02 pm

I never found the A and B rolls to be much harder than the other rolls. I had a lot of problems learning all of them when I was a novice, but I never found these two to be much harder than the rest. One thing though, which is very hard (and I still can't do it..

) is the D roll.. or cranning (I think they call it that).

My worst enemy when I play the whistle is the speed.. I tend to play too fast or too slow.. and I seldom find the "correct" pace for the tunes.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:23 pm

Rolls? Who needs 'em: Just crann at every available opportunity. You're sure to make friends wherever you go with this strategy. Trust me.

Loren

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:23 pm

Wombat wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:I disagree with Wombat, but I know nothing about guitar licks. But nothing.

Take a book out of how Highland pipers learn their insanely complicated and precise ornamentation: They slow down to super sloooooooow motion and exaggerate the finger movements (moving the fingers far off the chanter).

On the whistle, slow down (think slow motion, not slow musical speed), then move the fingers in a deliberate and exaggerated way. Most importantly keep in time. That is cruicial. Count eight notes if it helps. Get the fingers used to the clean and rhythmical succession of the movements you need for your roll. You will feel when it settles into your fingers (and it won't take that long). At that point you can speed up a little, but resist the temptation to speed up too much. Discipline yourself not to play at any speed where you cannot keep the rhythm clean and steady.

Im my experience it takes about a year of 10 min a day to get rolls under your belt. After that the A and the B rolls will continue to be the iffy ones. As a professional ITM flute player said to me once when I complained about having to work on my A rolls: "you'll be doing it for the rest of your life; we all have to."
Perhaps we disagree, but, if so, not on the basis of anything you say here I think. Well perhaps the idea that playing at normal speed some of the time during the learning process is a point of disagreement.

What I disagree with is indeed playing up to speed during learning.

If all there were to learning rolls was to play them slowly the way you describe, complete with exaggerated finger movements, and then gradually speed up, all the while maintaining steady rhythm, then the following experiment should work. Take a piece you can play well at normal speed, say a reel just to be concrete about it. Record it at that speed. Next slow it down as much as you possibly can and play it the way you recommend, complete with exaggerated finger movements and record it at that speed. Now speed up the recording until you reach the tempo you recorded the first version. If playing slowly where all that there were to learning rolls, the two versions should be nearly identical. This is obviously an empirical matter by I predict they wouldn't be. First, I don't think the rolls would sound quite right; this would have something to do with the duration of the blips and something to do with the exaggerations. Second, I doubt that what you'd hear would be a good reel rhythm. If I'm right about this, then playing rolls up to speed and incorporated in dance tunes involves something other than the start-slow-and-speed-up method.

I'd be really interested to hear the results if someone with the technique and the equipment were actually to try this experiment. Of course, even if it did work for an experienced player, it wouldn't disprove my theory for beginners because it might be possible for an experienced player to maintain a good reel rhythm at half tempo or slower but not possible for a beginner or intermediate player.

We are back to the "why do we find rolls difficult?" thread, aren't we? I am not concerned here with teaching how to hear rolls, but rather with how to play them. Even if you know what a roll sounds like (and it's not like there is only one way to play them), it doesn't mean you can play one. The issue is control and precision. I think in order to gain control and precision you need to slow down and play rolls evenly. Before you have control playing up to speed is useless and worse: it may give bad habits (of course I did it & do it nevertheless).

About the issue of the duration of blips: The ideal is none. Of course that is impossible, and of course slowdowned music will have longer blips than music played slow. But it is not about that at all, to my mind. It is about control and attack: the cut/tap is the attack to the note that follows, and not an additional note. Put differently: The blip is a regulatory ideal in the Kantian sense.

Let me explain why I predict as I do by going back to rock guitar. Chuck Berry licks wouldn't come out right played slowly because a rock song played very slowly becomes a slow blues and the temptation to phrase as though you were playing a slow blues would be irresistable. So, sped up, you wouldn't have rock and roll, you'd have something that sounded exactly like what it was: a slow blues sped up. Also the licks would sound wrong. Integral to rock phrasing on guitar is sustain. You lose that when you slow down and try to compensate in other ways. (Something like this happens on other instruments.) That is not a good way to learn good rhythm although, when you can play the licks roughly at or near speed, it is a good way to finesse them in certain ways.

So there is a role for playing slowly and an important one. In practice, I suspect that when first learning rolls at super-slow pace, people still practice playing unornamented dance tunes at or near speed to develop good dance rhythms.

I do think that you can learn to play a proper reel rhythm at 60 bpm, and that you are not condemned to play it like a hornpipe because you slow it down.